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poloport

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As an avid Portugal player i feel really bad that my favourite country is getting severely nerfed, when it's already in a poor state. I understand the point of these changes isn't to nerf portugal, but to handle other issues (such as spanish dominance over colonization, italy being weak, etc...), but the fact remains that certain of the measures coming in the next patch will severely nerf Portugal, making it even weaker than it already is.

Therefore i'd like to propose the following changes to not only make balancing the iberian peninsula easier, but also make colonizing africa and going to india more desirable than simply spamming the new world. The primary focus of these changes would be to play to each countries strenghts, while incentivising (though not railroading) a more historical gameplay.

So with that, let's get started.

Trade:

Trade is by far the most important thing when balancing Portugal, and something that had a huge influence IRL, therefore
it should be the main thing tackled when making changes in the Iberian peninsula. The thing i would suggest is the biggest issue, is the fact that both Spain and Portugal belong to the seville tradenode. This makes them have competition for trade income, and weakens both, in the current state of the game. Other major colonizers, such as france and England have their own end trade node, with little competition in it (the netherlands hardly ever manages to sucessfully form), so the fact that 2 major colonizers must share the same node means they are both being nerfed. his issue is copounded even more due to the fact that seville is now no longer an End node, meaning they will now be competing with the italians as well.

At the same time, keeping sevilla as an end node leaves them both too strong, and is ahistorical since the tradegoods often went into italy and northern europe.

Therefore i would offer the following suggestions:

Create another trade node in Lisbon that would receive trade from Brazil, Safi, Ivory coast, and would send trade into the english channel.
Have the Seville trade node receive trade from Safi, Caribean, Cheasapeak Bay, Tunis, and would send trade into Genoa.

This would have the following benefits, for one it would seperate Portugal and Castile, making both easier to balance individualy in the future. Secondly it allows both Portugal and spain to be nerfed, by having them compete with other wealthy european areas for trade from the colonies. Thirdly, the inputs for the tradenodes means that both portugal and castile have an increased incentive to complete missions that would otherwise be ignored (there is essentially no reason for portugal to ever colonize africa when it can go for the new world). And finally, it makes it so that india and Asia is just as desirable as the new world as a place to colonize early on, this is in line with history.

Not only that, but it gives england an incentive to remain allies with portugal (since they can then get some trade from Lisbon), and removes spanish incentive to go to war with portugal (since they're no longer competing for trade power in sevilla), allowing a more peaceful, colonization focused game with what are the 2 major colonizers of the period.

Paradox, if you will listen to anything i write, please just implement these trade changes above.



Provinces:

Lets face it, portugal is extremely weak in land forces, which while having some basis in reality, is way overblown. For example During the war of castillian sucession portugal fielded armies comparable to those of the castilians Whereas in game you can barely field half of castiles troops, which just seems ridiculous.
I would propose to fix this by adding 1 province (abrantes) that would come from a split of the Lisbon/castelo branco provinces. This is a province that over the time period was the site of many battles like during the seven years war, or the napoleonic wars not only that, but the adition of this province would allow a fortress to be placed there and essentially make it "the Key to Lisbon" and serve a similar purpose as the Elvas Lines.

I won't lie to you, this is a straight up buff to Portugal, unlike the trade changes which merely changed the status quo while keeping the power as is.



Colonization:

And finally we must talk about colonization. Portugal is primarily a colonizar and a trader, and therefore any balance regarding it will influence it. Therefore the change to make the first idea group at level 5 rather than 4 is a straight up nerf to portugal. As it is portugal is already artificially prevented from colonizing for a decade, and this will just make it worse.

Therefore i propose a change to the portuguese traditions, replace the +5% Trade efficiency with a +1 colonist.

This allows portugal to colonize africa, as it did IRL, and speeds up the way to india, making it as attractive as the new world, without allowing it to colonize the new world (since explorers can only go through ocean when they have quest for the new world at level 5). This means the new world will continue to be competed for, while giving portugal more oportunities to expand early on and build on things that can pay off later on.

I understand that this is a big change, but i truly believe that there is little downside in incentivising portugal to fulfil their missions and take advantage of certain events, because otherwise we get a portugal with events in india (GOA!) when all it did the entire game was focus on america. This would make asia and africa just as attractive to it as the new world.
 
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Aries666

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This has got to be a joke, but I will bite. As it is Portugal is far too strong and aside from the player is usually the richest country in the world. They are not really being nerfed in trade they will still be able to collect their share in Sevilla regardless of what Castile does. Regarding provinces and numbers of men, if AI Portugal can field 100% over it's FL from being filthy rich and you as the player somehow can't you are making some serious errors. Everyone is being slowed down on colonising, there is absolutely no basis for giving Portugal an colonist at the start of the game as this would put them in Brazil by 1450.
 
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Chuffy Manthrob

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Portugal really isn't weak at the moment at all and the idea of giving them a free extra colonist is pretty ridiculous since seeing large swathes of green splashed across the map is pretty common already. AI Portugal usually recreates the historical Spanish empire better than the Spain AI too
 
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Aries666

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Portugal really isn't weak at the moment at all and the idea of giving them a free extra colonist is pretty ridiculous since seeing large swathes of green splashed across the map is pretty common already. AI Portugal usually recreates the historical Spanish empire better than the Spain AI too
That is because France usually stomps Spain at some point but Portugal in its perfect isolation is free to beat up any and all non-European countries it likes.
 
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poloport

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This has got to be a joke, but I will bite. As it is Portugal is far too strong and aside from the player is usually the richest country in the world. They are not really being nerfed in trade they will still be able to collect their share in Sevilla regardless of what Castile does.

Unfortunately even with the Quantity ideas the force limits and manpower portugal has is tiny compared to the other major colonizing countries, making it essentially unable to survive agaisnt any other major power, which just wasn't the case IRL.


Regarding provinces and numbers of men, if AI Portugal can field 100% over it's FL from being filthy rich and you as the player somehow can't you are making some serious errors

I can do it, but i need to play in a certain way. I'm essentialy railroaded into having to colonize the new world in order to get enough money to survive in any significant way, which essentialy makes the whole africa/india route useless, and extremely hard to do sucessfully. Which is sad because portugal has some really cool events/missions related to africa and india and the far east, that you're just not able to make use of if you want to remain relevant.

Everyone is being slowed down on colonising, there is absolutely no basis for giving Portugal an colonist at the start of the game as this would put them in Brazil by 1450.

But it won't get them to brazil by 1450... It will just allow it to colonize africa as they did IRL, and make india a viable route.

Remember that you still need admin tech 5 to discover the new world!
 
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Magean

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AI Portugal usually has the highest income of the world, by a large margin, from the XVIth century onward to the end of the game, not counting the player country. Nerfing it will just bring it back to more reasonable levels of income. I don't think it will end up as a poor country.
 
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Xaster

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I'm pretty terrible at playing Portugal: I always seem to be incapable of creating a real colonial empire without losing tons of money. Anyway, I hardly think It's weak by itself. When played by AI is always filthy rich, can usually destroy british fleets in a breeze and the only time i've seen it struggling, was when England call them at war with France... Ouch (even in this case, Portugal suffers only if Castile gives France military access, or else it can only be whitepeaced).

So, I don't think it will suffer too much.
 

yerm

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Portugal's colonies size-wise are good, it's just global sprawl that tends to lack. They go heavier in America and don't reach as far east. That's nothing to do with any of the CS changes.

Portugal's military problems are more because of Castile's strength. Spain is a balance to France here, so Castile/Spain are rather strong, despite in reality they were largely under populated relative to most of Europe with a few good urban centers to balance it. If they bring Portugal up to be competitive (though not equal) to Castile, Portugal is way overpowered - they'll be rolling over North Africans, Indians, whoever they want from their nasty OP power base. If Castile is brought down to Portugal's level and its provinces are weak, while Portugal is an early game production powerhouse, this may be historical but it also may mean most games turn Iberia into Southern France. Their solution was a historical friends modifier to just keep the two from directly trading blows.

Portugal's money issues are unlikely to heavily change. They lose the income of subverting Genoa's trade to Seville, but that usually doesn't ramp up much as the game goes on anyway. Meanwhile, they tend towards an oversized navy, and as long as they aren't being idiotic with it (eg England vs Denmark war, they go fight galleys in the Baltic for no good reason), they tended to lock up more than their fair share of the node anyway; I see no reason why that would change now. Maybe a few % from lost trade out of Genoa, and a few more % of lost trade pulled to Genoa, that's not going to break them. Barring repeated suicides or other nonsense, I usually saw Portugal going over forcelimits... that implies they have more than enough money and can afford a hit.

Now, as for development, Portugal strikes me as someone whose chief problem (for the AI) was always a lack of direct expansion outlets. They simply don't grow in Europe, and grow really slowly if at all taking land in Africa. Now? They can go tall in Europe, and the lack of directly wide options are diminished. In my opinion this is a net buff to Portugal.

So, I predict AI Portugal will do better after CS, assuming the player owns the DLC, than they did previously.
 
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Aries666

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Unfortunately even with the Quantity ideas the force limits and manpower portugal has is tiny compared to the other major colonizing countries, making it essentially unable to survive agaisnt any other major power, which just wasn't the case IRL.

I can do it, but i need to play in a certain way. I'm essentialy railroaded into having to colonize the new world in order to get enough money to survive in any significant way, which essentialy makes the whole africa/india route useless, and extremely hard to do sucessfully. Which is sad because portugal has some really cool events/missions related to africa and india and the far east, that you're just not able to make use of if you want to remain relevant.

But it won't get them to brazil by 1450... It will just allow it to colonize africa as they did IRL, and make india a viable route.

Remember that you still need admin tech 5 to discover the new world!
Portugal is tiny compared to other major powers so I don't understand why it should be artificially inflated. Correct me if I'm wrong bur IRL Portugal rarely fought against the other majors powers especially compared to how much England, Spain, France and Austria fought one another and this is also the case in game. However, as the player you are free to fight whoever you want and having come off the back of an Albania game I can safely say you can conquer whoever you want.

Portugal easily has the resources to colonise both the new world and Africa-->India they are not mutally exclusive goals. You are right that they wont hit Brazil early I forgot about TI and QftNW, however, this doesn't mean that they need an extra colonist which would over the course of the game lead to vastly more Portuguese green everywhere. If you are having troubles dominating with Portugal I suggest you try tougher countries this will help you learn the game better than cruising along in isolation.
 
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Portugal's one of the strongest countries in the game and you think they're getting nerfed? It's got massive armies relative to its size and spreads far more than it did historically. To be fair, I'm one of the proponents that Portugal could have been much more powerful if they settled other non-tropical regions of the world, but still. Portugal outperforms it's real world counterpart in near every single game I play.
 
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+1 colonist, have you gone insane? I for one, am sick of seeing the Iberians colonise everything, particulery the Pacific.

Portugal needs a nerf, it will still be powerful nation.
 
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Krajzen

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+1 colonist? Holy shit, for what, to make them colonize Siberia even more often?

Historical Portugal had very limited manpower so it only colonized coast of Brasil and founded (multiethnic) trade factories along African/Asian coasts.
 
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Denkt

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Well I completely dominatated trade with Norway and Norway are in a worse trade position then Portugal, so P is far from weak and development will make it more possible to play the historical P.
 

poloport

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If you are having troubles dominating with Portugal I suggest you try tougher countries this will help you learn the game better than cruising along in isolation.

27CCA45358D593F735BDE06CB63840966286AC47



You guys who keep saying i should be better if i can't dominate with portugal are missing the point. It isn't about making Portugal stronger, it's about giving it more optionswhile maintaining its relative power about the same.


Portugal is tiny compared to other major powers so I don't understand why it should be artificially inflated. Correct me if I'm wrong bur IRL Portugal rarely fought against the other majors powers especially compared to how much England, Spain, France and Austria fought one another and this is also the case in game. However, as the player you are free to fight whoever you want and having come off the back of an Albania game I can safely say you can conquer whoever you want.

I'm not saying to artificially inflate portugal. The only measure of the 3 i propose that was intended to be a direct buff to portugal was the adding of a new province, and even that was more designed to allow wars in europe to be delayed, so that portugal has a chance to get something in the new world, rather than instantly get steamrolled and not gaining anything at all. This isn't unusual in a historical sense, and i gave several examples of wars where something similar happened.

The trade change i daresay is actually a nerf because it means portugal ends up losing out on most of the trade from the new world (caribean), and it no longer has an end node. Whatever advantages it gets from have a node all to itself are offset by the higher dificulty of directing trade from india, the lower trade pool, and the siphooning of trade to the english channel.

Portugal easily has the resources to colonise both the new world and Africa-->India they are not mutally exclusive goals. You are right that they wont hit Brazil early I forgot about TI and QftNW, however, this doesn't mean that they need an extra colonist which would over the course of the game lead to vastly more Portuguese green everywhere.

The idea of the +1 colonist wasn't intended to be a buff to be honest. I'd just like some way for portugal to be able to "colonize" africa early on, as it did IRL. It there was some way to establish "trade posts" in uncolonized provinces, that gave you trade power, and increased your colonization range that would be fantastic. But since such a thing isn't possible, then i put in the +1 colonist in the traditions so that it could establish those "colonies" in africa. It was never intended to buff the later colonization.

And if you can think of anything that would allow something like that to happen, i'd be overjoyed! Maybe missions to colonize african provinces that send the colonist and you suceed when it turnsinto a city?
 
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Aries666

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27CCA45358D593F735BDE06CB63840966286AC47



You guys who keep saying i should be better if i can't dominate with portugal are missing the point. It isn't about making Portugal stronger, it's about giving it more optionswhile maintaining its relative power about the same.




I'm not saying to artificially inflate portugal. The only measure of the 3 i propose that was intended to be a direct buff to portugal was the adding of a new province, and even that was more designed to allow wars in europe to be delayed, so that portugal has a chance to get something in the new world, rather than instantly get steamrolled and not gaining anything at all. This isn't unusual in a historical sense, and i gave several examples of wars where something similar happened.

The trade change i daresay is actually a nerf because it means portugal ends up losing out on most of the trade from the new world (caribean), and it no longer has an end node. Whatever advantages it gets from have a node all to itself are offset by the higher dificulty of directing trade from india, the lower trade pool, and the siphooning of trade to the english channel.



The idea of the +1 colonist wasn't intended to be a buff to be honest. I'd just like some way for portugal to be able to "colonize" africa early on, as it did IRL. It there was some way to establish "trade posts" in uncolonized provinces, that gave you trade power, and increased your colonization range that would be fantastic. But since such a thing isn't possible, then i put in the +1 colonist in the traditions so that it could establish those "colonies" in africa. It was never intended to buff the later colonization.

And if you can think of anything that would allow something like that to happen, i'd be overjoyed! Maybe missions to colonize african provinces that send the colonist and you suceed when it turnsinto a city?
Portugal is getting new provinces. I don't understand how changing Portugal's province count affects European wars though and Portugal is rarely if ever steamrolled regardless. As someone has already said the only change in trade for Portugal is that a small amount will be pulled into Genoa but likely not enough to have a noticeable difference. I would also argue that because Portugal doesn't go wide they will spend a disproportionately high number of MP's on development (compared with other Euro's) which could well make them stronger, not weaker.

You must realise that giving Portugal a colonist from the off may put them in Africa sooner but would also result in them taking 20-25% more provinces over the game which would make it an absurdly huge buff. If you want them to go round Africa sooner something like protectorates providing colonial range would be a much better solution this would give genuine reasons for the Euro's to protectorate west Africa and fight over those protectorates for early range.
 
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Wizzington

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Portugal could perhaps do with another province and a bit more development since the rest of Iberia got quite a few new provinces over the last patches.

They're hardly massively underpowered though.
 
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Denkt

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Portugal could perhaps do with another province and a bit more development since the rest of Iberia got quite a few new provinces over the last patches.

They're hardly massively underpowered though.

Morocco who is a neighbour to Portugal is underpowered however so that is something to look at.
 
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poloport

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Portugal could perhaps do with another province and a bit more development since the rest of Iberia got quite a few new provinces over the last patches.

They're hardly massively underpowered though.


I'm not saying they're massively underpowered. The only sugestion intended as a buf was the adding of the new province which was meant to balance out the fact that the other iberian countries got new provinces too. The rest of my suggestions were meant to increase the available courses of action, without giving portugal any more power, that's why i suggested the trade changes that make portugal focus on africa and india and brasil, and make it lose trade to the english channel, while giving it the flexibility of not having to compete with spain.

I'm just saying that i'd like them to have the ability to do what they did historicaly (go to india, and colonize parts of africa), without having it be a suboptimal way to play.

I agree the +1 colonist is perhaps a bit much, but unfortunately there is no way to create "trade outposts" in uncolonized provinces for trade power, and so it was meant as a way for portugal to get a headstart on colonising africa over other countries.
 
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I'm not saying they're massively underpowered. The only sugestion intended as a buf was the adding of the new province which was meant to balance out the fact that the other iberian countries got new provinces too. The rest of my suggestions were meant to increase the available courses of action, without giving portugal any more power, that's why i suggested the trade changes that make portugal focus on africa and india and brasil, and make it lose trade to the english channel, while giving it the flexibility of not having to compete with spain.

I'm just saying that i'd like them to have the ability to do what they did historicaly (go to india, and colonize parts of africa), without having it be a suboptimal way to play.

I agree the +1 colonist is perhaps a bit much, but unfortunately there is no way to create "trade outposts" in uncolonized provinces for trade power, and so it was meant as a way for portugal to get a headstart on colonising africa over other countries.

Those tradenodes don't just exist for portugal. They aren't going to redesign the trade system for 1 tag.

Portugal is already strong relative to it's size, and pretty much always outperforms their historical colonial game.
 
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