Why all the hate for static defenses?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II

The US Air Force has already proved that wrong but OK. As much as Mr. Chung is an interesting guy, he's not a scientist, he's an artist. Trusting him (and by extension, Usenet) on the matter of real life science is rather poor form. Stealth in space is essentially inherent to the operating environment: it's really big and empty. There's a lot of area that needs to be meticulously searched without knowing where to look in the first place. One could say it's like an ocean or a sea but bigger.

Stealth in space doesn't exist if you know where to look for things at all times but then why bother having sensors at all if you can predict the future perfectly?

And as many unrealistic things Paradox has in the game, Stealth in space is kind of crossing the line of complete impossibility. The laws of thermodynamics are ironclad.
Something that's been done IRL is "crossing the line" but invalidating the entirety of economics with time travel isn't?
 
  • 3
Reactions:

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
There are better ways of having "stealth" than fundamentally breaking the laws of physics. I actually offered a few ideas. But by all means obsess over a fraction of my post.
The game already fundamentally breaks physics all over the place. Stellaris is not the place to be debating purity of scifi.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Drekivoli

Recruit
13 Badges
Jan 25, 2017
9
3
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
The US Air Force has already proved that wrong but OK. As much as Mr. Chung is an interesting guy, he's not a scientist, he's an artist. Trusting him (and by extension, Usenet) on the matter of real life science is rather poor form. Stealth in space is essentially inherent to the operating environment: it's really big and empty. There's a lot of area that needs to be meticulously searched without knowing where to look in the first place. One could say it's like an ocean or a sea but bigger.

Stealth in space doesn't exist if you know where to look for things at all times but then why bother having sensors at all if you can predict the future perfectly?


Something that's been done IRL is "crossing the line" but invalidating the entirety of economics with time travel isn't?

And I should trust you because of what? Do you have any evidence of these claims or should I just take your word for it? The rest of your arguments were already handled in my post and Mr Chung actually used references. Comparing Space to the Ocean is laughably naive and ignorant. In an Ocean you don't need to worry about life support when you're above water. Nor is your vessel at least 200+k hotter than anything near it. That alone makes it easy for any telescope with infrared capabilities to detect your ship.

It doesn't matter how "empty" space is, when as I said you're hotter than anything around you. You'll stick out like a sore thumb. But in this case the sore thumb is covered in glowing paint and it's really really bright.

It isn't done "irl". No need to be so rude by the way.
 

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
That wasn't my point nor my intention but keep moving the goalpost.
I haven't.

Saying that "stealth in space is a step too far" is ridiculous when the game has already gone far beyond realistic physics in numerous places. The game fundamentally breaks all sorts of laws of physics- that's fine. Stellaris is space opera. If cloaking fields add interesting and fun gameplay, they can belong, easily. Right alongside jellyfish made out of living light, star-eating energy beings, and sentient paradoxes.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Drekivoli

Recruit
13 Badges
Jan 25, 2017
9
3
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
What about misdirection or masking of exact numbers/fleet strength as opposed to full on stealth?
That could work, and it would be pretty interesting too. So instead of throwing random fleets at each other with reckless abandon a player needs to make sure that they have reserve fleets as well otherwise they can find themselves in dire straits.

I haven't.

Saying that "stealth in space is a step too far" is ridiculous when the game has already gone far beyond realistic physics in numerous places. The game fundamentally breaks all sorts of laws of physics- that's fine. Stellaris is space opera. If cloaking fields add interesting and fun gameplay, they can belong, easily. Right alongside jellyfish made out of living light, star-eating energy beings, and sentient paradoxes.

That's not my main reasoning for not liking it. And you're making a fair point. But honestly, my main gripe is my issue with pure stealth because I feel that A) It can easily become unbalanced B) I really like the concept of "social stealth" where the main goal isn't to hide but to create an illusion of belonging in the environment.

I think such as system could be used for dealing with Spaceborne aliens as well. Maybe creating ships that resemble these lifeforms? Or using these aliens as vessels themselves?
 

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
That's not my main reasoning for not liking it. And you're making a fair point. But honestly, my main gripe is my issue with pure stealth because I feel that A) It can easily become unbalanced B) I really like the concept of "social stealth" where the main goal isn't to hide but to create an illusion of belonging in the environment.

I think such as system could be used for dealing with Spaceborne aliens as well. Maybe creating ships that resemble these lifeforms? Or using these aliens as vessels themselves?
I don't think that a more traditional cloaking field is mutually incompatible with "social stealth", as you put it.

The addition of an espionage layer that lets you mask your fleet strength or run "false flag" operations would be great, sure. I just don't see why it would have to be either/or to a means of making a ship "invisible".

(Arguments as towards "but cloaking could become unbalanced" don't hold water IMO; the mechanic could be unbalanced or it could be balanced depending on how it was implemented, and there isn't really a way to know until there's an example of how the mechanic would work and interacts with the rest of the game. Plenty of games have cloaking as a balanced and integrated mechanic- it can clearly be done.)
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
And I should trust you because of what? Do you have any evidence of these claims or should I just take your word for it? The rest of your arguments were already handled in my post and Mr Chung actually used references. Comparing Space to the Ocean is laughably naive and ignorant. In an Ocean you don't need to worry about life support when you're above water.

Chung's "references" are a couple of like-minded people on Usenet and his own inferences, but unfortunately his inferences are very limited. "No stealth in space" is more or less a normative statement. If you define "stealth" as "retaining the ability to surprise," then stealth is possible anywhere. Even in space.

If you define "stealth" as "a limited series of technological/physical solutions to solving a problem," or "never being detected," or something equally narrow, then stealth is only possible within certain limited constraints and environments. Hiding in the Antarctic would be near equally difficult as vacuum by the latter definition, which is why no one serious uses the latter definition. It's too contrived. I suspect the association of "stealth" with "technological solutions" comes from people reading about VLO aircraft and thinking that emissions control is the only kind of "stealth".

Nor is your vessel at least 200+k hotter than anything near it. That alone makes it easy for any telescope with infrared capabilities to detect your ship.

That's the point, though. You have to be looking in the right spot at the right time. You have to have Sufficient Optics to get enough detail of what you're looking at to make an analysis, you have to have sufficient operators (or sufficiently powerful computers) to synthesize this information into useful targeting data, you have to know ahead of time where the enemy is going to be, etc.

All of this takes time, which is something the enemy can use to confound efforts to detect, track, or attack him. It only really applies when the target you're attacking doesn't move, can't defend itself, and doesn't bother trying to hide. Coincidentally that is pretty much every modern spacecraft.

Orbit around celestial bodies is the only thing of military value in space, at least in any "realistic" setting it would be the only place battles would (or even could) be fought, which means X-37B has effectively achieved stealth in space by virtue of having a giant object (Earth) to hide behind while it does orbit changes. You think you see it, you setup an ASAT launch the next time it comes around, and then it's not there when you look again, because the spaceplane changed orbits on the other side of the world.

If you're going to start complaining about "the laws of thermodynamics" or something in a setting where literal time travel exists, then you've much bigger fish to fry than a couple spaceships not cooking their contents to well done.

It doesn't matter how "empty" space is, when as I said you're hotter than anything around you. You'll stick out like a sore thumb. But in this case the sore thumb is covered in glowing paint and it's really really bright.

It does if you don't know where to look. Considering you need to search a large portion of sky to find even one satellite, imagine trying to keep a real-time picture of their movement if they were all switching orbits constantly and usually out of your view. It would be difficult to impossible.

It isn't done "irl". No need to be so rude by the way.

I'm not being rude but I guess you could say blunt. Dramatic or obviously wrong statements like "crossing the line" and "no stealth in space" are a bit silly, though.

What about misdirection or masking of exact numbers/fleet strength as opposed to full on stealth?

A better addition would be some sort of espionage or fleet intelligence that lets you see what modules enemy ships have, what ships they're building, etc. The picture would be patchy or prone to errors, like in Darkest Hour where you can get incorrect estimates of infantry divisions or build queues, depending on how much funding you put into it. In Stellaris case, it might be incorrect or unknown ship modules, and incomplete estimates of ship numbers. Ultimately though, you'd be able to see all the ship types your opponent has in service and their modules, so you could plan how to counter these specific ship types.

Misdirection wouldn't be terribly useful given this is a grand strategy game. Being able to mask fleet strength can already be done, technically, if you optimize a build. Optimal build ships tend to belie their true strengths substantially.

It might be possible to work in a fairly wide intelligence and counter-intelligence system where you'd feed players false information and obtain true information, or vice versa.

I'm not sure how the diplomatic screen makes the "fleet power" judgment, but being able to change it actively would be interesting. You could provoke opponents into attacking you by portraying yourself weaker than you are, etc.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
@Kat Tsun You clear haven't read much of Atomic Rockets if your argument as towards "stealth in space" is "but what if you hid behind a planet?"

That's literally the only way to hide in space- planets are the only equivalent to a "horizon" there is. Across interplanetary distances, there's zero means of hiding an approach against somebody who is looking.

Nice try though.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
I always thought that Stealth in space would probably be best served by making LOTS of noise :)

Drowning out ones sensors.
Blinding cameras isn't so much a "stealth" tactic as a "chaff" one, and optics are already at the point they can recover from pretty intense stimuli easily. "Drowning out" sensors doesn't work because you are tiny and space is huge- any signal your ship could output would just make it a clearer target.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
@Kat Tsun You clear haven't read much of Atomic Rockets if your argument as towards "stealth in space" is "but what if you hid behind a planet?"

That's great except I've read the entire website. I just wasn't really impressed. It made a lot of silly assumptions. Like conceding to the notion that people would care about fighting in deep space. Since "hardness" of science is relative, I can see how someone who isn't very initiated in things like "why people fight" would think it's "hard science", but it's really not. It completely ignores the fact that people don't fight over nothing.

It's a bunch of equations backing up a normative assertion, intended to be used as a guide for worldbuilding by science fiction authors. It's fine if you know literally nothing about the subjects it talks about I guess, which seems to be most people who regurgitate it as truth.

"No stealth in space" is quite notoriously wrong. People have been surprised by things in space before, they will continue being surprised by things in space.

"Stealth" isn't "avoiding detection by technological sensors", it's merely the ability to "retain surprise".

That's literally the only way to hide in space-planets are the only equivalent to a "horizon" there is.

What else would you fight over in space though? Orbit is the only thing that matters, and there's plenty of space to hide in there. As I've mentioned, the USAF has achieved "stealth in space" with X-37B.

Across interplanetary distances, there's zero means of hiding an approach against somebody who is looking.

Why would anyone care about fighting at "interplanetary distances"?

If you're going to try to use a realism argument, you might as well admit to real life and say that the human race will be long dead before it permanently inhabits other planets. Mars and the Moon would both kill you and Venus requires too much work to bother with. That is ultimately where Atomic Rocket fails the reality test: when it makes the normative assumption that mankind will ever leave Earth in any substantial quantity, but only because it's stuck in the 1960s. Once you start making that concession, you've left "realism" behind and joined the ranks of Perry Rhodan.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Drekivoli

Recruit
13 Badges
Jan 25, 2017
9
3
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
That's great except I've read the entire website. I just wasn't really impressed. It made a lot of silly assumptions. Like conceding to the notion that people would care about fighting in deep space. Since "hardness" of science is relative, I can see how someone who isn't very initiated in things like "why people fight" would think it's "hard science", but it's really not. It completely ignores the fact that people don't fight over nothing.

It's a bunch of equations backing up a normative assertion, intended to be used as a guide for worldbuilding by science fiction authors. It's fine if you know literally nothing about the subjects it talks about I guess, which seems to be most people who regurgitate it as truth.

"No stealth in space" is quite notoriously wrong. People have been surprised by things in space before, they will continue being surprised by things in space.

"Stealth" isn't "avoiding detection by technological sensors", it's merely the ability to "retain surprise".



What else would you fight over in space though? Orbit is the only thing that matters, and there's plenty of space to hide in there. As I've mentioned, the USAF has achieved "stealth in space" with X-37B.



Why would anyone care about fighting at "interplanetary distances"?

If you're going to try to use a realism argument, you might as well admit to real life and say that the human race will be long dead before it permanently inhabits other planets. Mars and the Moon would both kill you and Venus requires too much work to bother with. That is ultimately where Atomic Rocket fails the reality test: when it makes the normative assumption that mankind will ever leave Earth in any substantial quantity, but only because it's stuck in the 1960s. Once you start making that concession, you've left "realism" behind and joined the ranks of Perry Rhodan.

I need to remind you that you have yet to back up any of your claims. Anyway, I'm done arguing with you because this has gone full circle. And you keep just proving how ignorant you are on the subject matter.
 

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
I need to remind you that you have yet to back up any of your claims.

I assumed that X-37B was common knowledge, given it was widely reported on the BBC and other major media news outlets. Here is a source:

http://spaceflight101.com/spacecraft/x-37b-otv/

It was determined that OTV-2 was released into a 403 by 420-Kilometer Orbit with an inclination of 40 degrees. The spacecraft repeated its ground path every four days, demonstrating that X-37B can fly imaging reconnaissance mission profiles.

During the mission, the vehicle made a number of orbit adjustments changing its altitude and ground coverage. During a short period in the mission, OTV-1 repeated its ground track every two days and late into the flight, the orbit of the vehicle was lowered to 281 to 292 Kilometers. It is estimated that the first four orbit changes of the mission required at total delta-V of 102m/s.

X-37B has demonstrated impressive orbital maneuvering capability, being able to rapidly change orbits within a single pass to evade detection by ASAT units, who will be scanning a fairly narrow tracking area based on previous observations of the ground track.

That said, it is a demonstrator, not a production aircraft. It could, in theory, be used as a reconnaissance platform, but the maneuvering capability is mostly so that X-37C can eventually place satellites in wide and diverse orbits within a single mission.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you because this has gone full circle. And you keep just proving how ignorant you are on the subject matter.

I wasn't aware it ever left that circle. Your only "source" is Mr. Chung's website, which is a series of normative statements and maths equations.

He has as much validity in discussing science fiction as anyone else because his website dabbles in fiction. His list of "what space isn't" isn't some kind of gospel on the real world, unless Winchell Chung is a veteran of the Jovian War and can confirm that there is, indeed, "no stealth in space". It's a series of personal, normative caveats he's informing the reader about. The website is intended as a guide for people to write fiction in the vein of Heinlein and other Golden Age SF authors.

There's no positive statements being made there to prove or disprove. He backs his opinions up with some, but the statements themselves are ultimately normative.You might as well say that Blindsight is 'realistic' because Peter Watts backed up his SF world with some biology and philosophy.

The difference of course is that Peter Watts included a thirty-something page back matter where he discussed all the concepts of his fictional world, how he based certain things on psychology, physics, biology, etc., and did it by citing actual academic journals and articles from Nature and Science, popular science magazines like New Scientist, and conference papers.

Mr. Chung cites Usenet posts, some random people's websites, and a few basic equations.

It's called "verisimilitude" and it's a common thing to employ in fiction because it seems quite realistic and it helps the reader suspend his disbelief. However it only extends as far as the reader's own education (a point that I can't lay claim to) so something that is "hard" to one person is "soft" to another or vice versa.

There are loads of reasons to consider the notion of "no stealth in space" to be seriously uninformed. For one, detection doesn't imply targeting, nor does it imply identification. How many times does a NASA telescope sweep the sky and find a new NEO? The most recent discovery was Monday while I was eating breakfast. NASA found three 1 km asteroids. There's also the considerations of information overload, not all stealth implies lack of detection (indeed, deception frequently requires detection to achieve stealth), limited search resources, etc.

Mr. Chung even cites a Rocketpunk Manifesto (a good blog) post that says as much, which shows how much you've read of Atomic Rockets:

That said, politics is more complicated and difficult than physics, and so is warfare. Targets will go out of their way, perhaps literally, to be unhelpful. 'Stealth' in the currently popular sense of making yourself invisible to tracking tech looks like a nonstarter, but there are many other ways to be stealthy, even in space.

(...)

For deep space attackers hiding in the clutter is problematic, but there are other forms of stealth and deception. In Heinlein's Between Planets the Venus rebels seize Earth's military-civil orbital station, including its stockpile of nukes, by arriving aboard a scheduled space liner. Better security measures should have foiled this, but you can say that of many successful operations, and it is not hard to come up with scenarios for military raiders approaching on civil orbits.

(...)

How this works depends in part on secondary factors that are dealer's (or author's) choice.

http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2009/06/space-warfare-ii-stealth-reconsidered.html



It's true that these problems may all disappear one day, in the sense that it's also true that we may one day live on Venus, or that we may all be extinct in 500 years, or that we could invent time travel. Which is to say that it's an opinion, a statement that cannot be proven, but can be supported by a variety of rhetorical tools.

The fact that I need to explain that says volumes.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
Why would anyone care about fighting at "interplanetary distances"?
I don't know, perhaps something as crazy and outlandish as, hm, a colony in one part of a solar system wanting to fight a colony in another part? Using the horizon as cover is only useful until you have to attack something beyond orbit- of which there are plenty of reasons you might have to do.

I'm seriously doubting you've read the website.

Oh, wait, no- your argument is that clearly it'd be impossible for us to actually leave orbit in any capacity.

Yeah, no. That's not an argument- that's a cheap cop-out.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

zanaikin

Captain
32 Badges
Sep 13, 2012
487
281
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
I still think the solution to most of the problems would be planetary defenses:
For example you could install a planetary laser battery (having the latest weapons as xl design) - it should deal some damage but not a huge amount of damage, maybe holding 2-4 XL weapons ( or you could upgrade the battery for more power later in the game).
This way your opponent is forced to bombard your planet which will take some time (could be increased by better planetary shields) during which his fleet will take damage.
This concept would basically work like a fortress in EU4. You have the attrition damage and buy some time as well.
One could even go further than that and get missile bases for torpedos or hangars on the planet (good enough for early-mid game combined with the starbase).

Planetary defenses would actually help a lot. Land-based missile batteries and low-orbit fortresses that could take shelter behind a planetary shield has been a part of many scifi series. This would mean hostile fleets operating near or sieging down a planet would be subject to attrition, which inherently gives the defenders more tactical opportunities such as a delayed counterattack when the besieging fleets suffered notable damage.


EU games do not even a simulate supply system.* They teach you next to nothing about military theory. Also 'turtling' can be a viable strategy: Just look at the Eighty Years War and the attrition the Spanish took by sieging down all these forts.

EU4's mechanics are simplistic, not nonexistent. The supply limit system actually teaches one of the basics of Prussia military doctrines: that no single route of advance can supply more than one corps at a time. Instead, multiple corps of a large army must split and advance along parallel, mutually supporting lines. The failure to do this is one of the chief reasons why Napoleon's Grand Armee perished in Russia.

My study of the Eighty Years War history attributes the Dutch victory to the French who controlled and routinely cut Habsburg supply lines, forcing the Spanish forces to resupply by sea which the Dutch had an advantage over.


In HoI 2+3 defences were so strong that often in multiplayer games these were restricted. Ever tried to punch through a completely fortified French boarder as the German player against a capable enemy? Good luck.

The last time I came across that, I blitz'd an unprepared Switzerland =P
The AI can always be outmaneuvered through sufficient creativity of strategy. In multiplayer it's harder, and good war plans rely more heavily on diplomacy.
 

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
I don't know, perhaps something as crazy and outlandish as, hm, a colony in one part of a solar system wanting to fight a colony in another part?

Point to me on the map of the solar system where space colonies exist and I'll follow this line of discussion. Otherwise you're just as "realistic" as Star Trek.

I'm seriously doubting you've read the website.

But I've read Wookiepedia.

Oh, wait, no- your argument is that clearly it'd be impossible for us to actually leave orbit in any capacity.

My argument is closer to there's no reason to leave orbit. It's not literally true, there are plenty of silly reasons like "vanity" and "exploration" that are well and good. Nothing that will lead to permanent settlements or whatever, unless you want to make Venus hospitable, ignore economics, and forcibly transplant people from their homes to The New Frontier.

My hypothetical is probably more likely than your hypothetical because my hypothetical doesn't diverge too far from real life norms.

Yeah, no. That's not an argument- that's a cheap cop-out.

Why would you go to space? It's an intensely hostile and dangerous environment, filled with radiation, microgravity, and other hazards. It literally requires the "space colonist" to be among the most supremely physically fit and intelligent people in the world just to survive. There's no such thing as "space colonies" and there never will be. Any other celestial body besides Venus or Earth and your bones and muscles would waste away.

You act as if space is some new continent to be discovered. It isn't. It's more like the Antarctic, or maybe Siberia or Alaska. No one is flocking to the mega-cities of Nome and McMurdo, because there's nothing of value there, or everything of value is being tapped and the population exists solely to extract whatever resources are there. Though, given space's extreme hostility, I imagine any resource tapping would be done through teleoperation or robotics, while humans are sent to plant flags on whatever celestial bodies they can reach. Eventually that might get replaced by robots too.

Of course, science still happens in the Antarctic, Alaska, and Siberia. Science will happen in space, too, but no one is going to be booking a vacation to the Lunar Springs for the duration of Humanity's shelf life. That's exactly the type of techno-optimism that built Star Trek, Heinlein, and Atomic Rockets, though. Then reality intervened and everyone realized we weren't going to have homesteads on Mars.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:

Drekivoli

Recruit
13 Badges
Jan 25, 2017
9
3
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
@Kat Tsun
What does the maneuverability of the vessel have to do with stealth capabilities? That doesn't prove your point at all. It's completely unrelated. Maybe you misinterpreted my comment? I'm honestly confused by your false assertions.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
@Kat Tsun
What does the maneuverability of the vessel have to do with stealth capabilities?

Maneuverability allows it to evade detection by changing orbits rapidly and dramatically. It doesn't need to be VLO or anything silly if it can simply move out of the way, out of sight of the radar that tries to track it.

Stealth in space: Accomplished.

Your definition of stealth is just too narrow. You show how little you read of Atomic Rockets when you didn't accept that "stealth is more than just hiding from sensors" as true, something Mr. Chung supports on his caveats page. I even quoted the Rocketpunk Manifesto which Mr. Chung links to a lot, including on that page, which also supports the argument I made.

The only false assertions being made here is that you're taking a statement too literally. I suppose you just read the list and didn't bother reading the whole website or following the links.
 
  • 3
Reactions: