Why ALL building upgrades require strategic resources?

[Urza1234]

I feel like there should actually be some tangible bonus or benefit to upgrading these buildings on specialized planets. The Forge-world with 6 forge workers produces the same alloy per worker as the planet with 60+ forge workers.
Where are the economies of scale?
The only bonus you get is a minor savings in admin cap? Wow, gee, oh gosh.

 

[Chthon]

Just a reminder you can get +35% from refineries by just keeping stability at 100 and the refinery world modifier, so the amount of minerals spent in strategic resources is less.

Also egalitarian get another 5-10% due to specialist.

I was ignoring the minerals in and alloys out for the Refinery itself simply because for any set of bonuses, it's the same per job between the different buildings. Exactly the same.

Hell, it's the same even for the Ecumenopolis.

As such, we can safely ignore that. We're only interested in how much upkeep the fully staffed building will have and all of the supporting structures for it.

 

[RoverStorm]

I was ignoring the minerals in and alloys out for the Refinery itself simply because for any set of bonuses, it's the same per job between the different buildings. Exactly the same.

Hell, it's the same even for the Ecumenopolis.

As such, we can safely ignore that. We're only interested in how much upkeep the fully staffed building will have and all of the supporting structures for it.

I was referring to refineries, not the Nano-plants.

Yes foundry job output doesn't matter in your math since no matter where the jobs come from they will give the same number of alloys and use the same number of minerals, but that's NOT true of the Chemical Plants. If one increases the output of refineries, you are reducing the number of chemical plants (and therefore minerals into strategic resources) that you need for each Nano-Plant.

Let's take a relatively realistic scenario anyone can get and say I have a refinery world (+5%) with 100 stab (+30%) and the "Specialist +5% output" tradition, for a grand total of +40% output on refineries. Each Chemical plant, for the SAME 10 minerals, is NOW giving me 2.8 Motes instead of 2. This means that for 10 minerals I get not only the 2 I need for ONE Nano-Foundry, but ALSO 0.8 to go toward ANOTHER Nano-Foundry. This translates into less minerals being spent on Motes, assuming I actually USE those other motes for things.

If you do the math, 10 minerals normally gives 2 Motes. Divide 10 by 2, you get 5, which is the effective mineral cost per mote. Now if you take the above scenario, 10 minerals gives 2.8 motes. If you divide 10 by 2.8, you get about 3.6. Multiply by 2 (since we only want the cost for two motes, not all 2.8), and you get about 7.15.

So 7.15 is the ACTUAL mineral upkeep of your Nano-Plant if your refinery world has 100 stab and you nabbed the specialist +5% output tradition in the prosperity tree.

But this DOES assume you use those extra motes for additional foundries (or whatever other buildings use them as upkeep).

 

[RoverStorm]

I feel like there should actually be some tangible bonus or benefit to upgrading these buildings on specialized planets.

I mean technically you get a cute +5% output to the "specialized" resource, BUT there's no difference in (desired resource) output between four worlds with just the level 1 version and a single planet with level 3 buildings and a second planet with refineries to support it.

Only reason I mention this is that sometimes I just see people building these things like foundries anywhere they can, on planets not actually specialized for foundry output.

 

[Chthon]

I was referring to refineries, not the Nano-plants.

Yes foundry job output doesn't matter in your math since no matter where the jobs come from they will give the same number of alloys and use the same number of minerals, but that's NOT true of the Chemical Plants. If one increases the output of refineries, you are reducing the number of chemical plants (and therefore minerals into strategic resources) that you need for each Nano-Plant.

Let's take a relatively realistic scenario anyone can get and say I have a refinery world (+5%) with 100 stab (+30%) and the "Specialist +5% output" tradition, for a grand total of +40% output on refineries. Each Chemical plant, for the SAME 10 minerals, is NOW giving me 2.8 Motes instead of 2. This means that for 10 minerals I get not only the 2 I need for ONE Nano-Foundry, but ALSO 0.8 to go toward ANOTHER Nano-Foundry. This translates into less minerals being spent on Motes, assuming I actually USE those other motes for things.

If you do the math, 10 minerals normally gives 2 Motes. Divide 10 by 2, you get 5, which is the effective mineral cost per mote. Now if you take the above scenario, 10 minerals gives 2.8 motes. If you divide 10 by 2.8, you get about 3.6. Multiply by 2 (since we only want the cost for two motes, not all 2.8), and you get about 7.15.

So 7.15 is the ACTUAL mineral upkeep of your Nano-Plant if your refinery world has 100 stab and you nabbed the specialist +5% output tradition in the prosperity tree.

But this DOES assume you use those extra motes for additional foundries (or whatever other buildings use them as upkeep).

In that case, my point was to show first how bad it could be, then show that with just one bonus, it can break even. With more bonuses like you propose, yes it can get even better, and I mentioned that, but there are so many combinations of bonuses I didn't feel like creating a whole spreadsheet to show that.

I know you can get even better than that. That wasn't the point. The point was that economically the upgrades aren't as bad as they seem.

 

[RoverStorm]

I know you can get even better than that. That wasn't the point. The point was that economically the upgrades aren't as bad as they seem.

Oh well I think we're arguing the same thing then XD. I missed you doing "the worst case scenario" bit, sorry then.

I'm just getting exhausted about people talking about how utter garbage the upgraded buildings are when in my games they are typically well worth it, from my maths at least.

 

[kviiri]

It's about building slot efficiency; a level 3 foundry/factory/lab and a refinery would employ more people than almost any 2 unpgraded buildings (except for commercial zones)

That's true --- but then it's hardly a no-brainer it was posited to be, since building slot usage isn't the only thing one might want to optimize.

 

[Daedwartin]

That's true --- but then it's hardly a no-brainer it was posited to be, since building slot usage isn't the only thing one might want to optimize.

Of course, we should consider Foundry and Industrial Arcologies. These are just basically giant factories that produce 2.5 of their respective product in return for requiring the same amount of minerals as 2.5 of their respective base building and 5 energy upkeep.

2.5 base building energy upkeep is 10 energy. Now, granted, you will never have 2.5 of a building. We outright see a immediate advantage to the Foundry and Industrial Arcologies: They are always more energy efficient. T2 foundries and factories cost 5 energy, a building slot, and a rare resource for half the jobs. T3 is 6 energy, 2 of the rare resource, and a building slot for just 8 jobs. Without considering getting the rare resource, the building has already lost at all levels in competing for efficiency. Slap an extra 10 minerals and 3 energy for synthesizing the resources or 1 energy for the harvesting.

However....there is actually an element we must also include in comparing the 2: Housing. Assuming all techs increasing housing have been obtained, In order to house 2.5 factory workers requires either 2 city districts or 5 rural districts, unless you are agarian ideal. Agarian Ideal will need 3 mining or generator districts 2 city districts or 2 farming districts. City Districts require 2 energy each, while rural districts need 1. We are not considering the housing of the attached jobs, yields of the jobs, the extra pops needed to get the slots, or any housing requirement reductions.

All non-Residential Acrology Districts have 10 housing, and as stated need 5 energy upkeep. This shows us that Foundry and Industrial Arcologies also use less districts to do the same work as the factories as they can house and employ those pops. That said, you are still going to have the 5 rural districts as It is still going to be drinking down 60 minerals, 5 energy, and 10 food a month. But then again...the only people using rural districts to house specialists are going to be Agrarian Idealists due to their 3 housing base for rural and 4 housing on farming districts. Agrarian Ideal is also unable to build their own Ecumenopolis worlds and so has to make do with the buildings.

As for making them, In order to go to T3 foundries and factories, it requires 1800 minerals, 150 of their respective rare resource, and 1440 days to make. All Arcology districts require 900 minerals and 600 days to make. Not only do they do the job more efficiently, they are outright just cheaper to make.

TD;LR: There is a choice until Ecumonoplis are built, after which it is best to phase out the buildings for foundry and industrial acrologies, unless you live in the shire. In which case Mister Frodo, you now have the extra choices of if to use rural districts or city districts as the means to house the pops while choosing to upgrade or not.

 

[Chthon]

Of course, we should consider Foundry and Industrial Arcologies. These are just basically giant factories that produce 2.5 of their respective product in return for requiring the same amount of minerals as 2.5 of their respective base building and 5 energy upkeep.

2.5 base building energy upkeep is 10 energy. Now, granted, you will never have 2.5 of a building. We outright see a immediate advantage to the Foundry and Industrial Arcologies: They are always more energy efficient. T2 foundries and factories cost 5 energy, a building slot, and a rare resource for half the jobs. T3 is 6 energy, 2 of the rare resource, and a building slot for just 8 jobs. Without considering getting the rare resource, the building has already lost at all levels in competing for efficiency. Slap an extra 10 minerals and 3 energy for synthesizing the resources or 1 energy for the harvesting.

However....there is actually an element we must also include in comparing the 2: Housing. Assuming all techs increasing housing have been obtained, In order to house 2.5 factory workers requires either 2 city districts or 5 rural districts, unless you are agarian ideal. Agarian Ideal will need 3 mining or generator districts 2 city districts or 2 farming districts. City Districts require 2 energy each, while rural districts need 1. We are not considering the housing of the attached jobs, yields of the jobs, the extra pops needed to get the slots, or any housing requirement reductions.

All non-Residential Acrology Districts have 10 housing, and as stated need 5 energy upkeep. This shows us that Foundry and Industrial Arcologies also use less districts to do the same work as the factories as they can house and employ those pops. That said, you are still going to have the 5 rural districts as It is still going to be drinking down 60 minerals, 5 energy, and 10 food a month. But then again...the only people using rural districts to house specialists are going to be Agrarian Idealists due to their 3 housing base for rural and 4 housing on farming districts. Agrarian Ideal is also unable to build their own Ecumenopolis worlds and so has to make do with the buildings.

As for making them, In order to go to T3 foundries and factories, it requires 1800 minerals, 150 of their respective rare resource, and 1440 days to make. All Arcology districts require 900 minerals and 600 days to make. Not only do they do the job more efficiently, they are outright just cheaper to make.

TD;LR: There is a choice until Ecumonoplis are built, after which it is best to phase out the buildings for foundry and industrial acrologies, unless you live in the shire. In which case Mister Frodo, you now have the extra choices of if to use rural districts or city districts as the means to house the pops while choosing to upgrade or not.

Not true for anyone who does not or cannot take Arcologies. Those aren't always on the table, and the income cost to set one up should be included.

How many years of game time does it take for an Arcology to pay for itself I wonder.

 

[Secret Master]

unless you live in the shire. In which case Mister Frodo, you now have the extra choices of if to use rural districts or city districts as the means to house the pops while choosing to upgrade or not.