Who Wants to make a cold war mod?

[77Hawk77]

I've seen a few other threads expressing interest in a Cold War mod. But I didn't see anyone pledging to make one.
I'm going to be making a Cold War mod to the best of my abilities but i think it will take a long time to do alone.

What I would like to know is wether there are other modders who planned on making a cold war mod and maybe they'd like to work together join efforts and the like, in order to maybe make something that can be released within a reasonable amount of time.

My vision for a Cold War mod, is to take the hearts of iron experience to a Cold War setting, and not completely reinvent the game. Units, tech trees, countries, leaders, doctrines focuses etc. should be updated to a Cold War standard, but until that is gameplay complete I would try to avoid making any features, lest that I would go down the same road as East vs West.

As for the date I thought 1965 would be the perfect year to start for several reasons, but also because I think making the tet offensive in 1968 kinda like "Danzig or War" where the world potentially can unleash world war 3, giving the same build up time as in the 1936 scenario. If I have enough time I would also like to make a 1982 scenario where the cold war can turn hot even sooner. Another good reason for these dates is that a lot of information is avaliable about them, 1982 includes a list of all tank formations in the world at the time for example, meaning we could have very realistic starting forces.

Either way, i was hoping perhaps people interested in this would like to join a discord or something like that, and discuss if there is anything we could work together on, even if we don't agree on starting dates or things, we could cooporate on other things like TechGroup logos or art, anything people would like to work together on really.

 

[dasVerruckteJoe]

i've really been waiting for a cold war game that had a bit of a modern polish to it for a long time now. i was so dissapointed that evw was cancelled and i'm sure lots of others are as it's a largely untapped era for games that needs filling.

 

[sjord1]

I think that the national focus trees could be really usefull if one would like to mod the cold war. one could mod in things like the marshall plan, creation of NATO and Warsaw Pact and the Korea war in by making them national focusses somewhere in the tree. I do not entirely agree on all those startdates. I think first of all that modders should ambiate one start date at a time to begin with. something like starting with a 1950 start date, making that work. once that works, maybe a 1965 date. just prevent getting over-ambitious. About helping: sorry I am no modder, just throwing my ideas here

 

[77Hawk77]

i've really been waiting for a cold war game that had a bit of a modern polish to it for a long time now. i was so dissapointed that evw was cancelled and i'm sure lots of others are as it's a largely untapped era for games that needs filling.

Aboslutely agree, and i was looking forward to EVW aswell.

I think that the national focus trees could be really usefull if one would like to mod the cold war. one could mod in things like the marshall plan, creation of NATO and Warsaw Pact and the Korea war in by making them national focusses somewhere in the tree. I do not entirely agree on all those startdates. I think first of all that modders should ambiate one start date at a time to begin with. something like starting with a 1950 start date, making that work. once that works, maybe a 1965 date. just prevent getting over-ambitious. About helping: sorry I am no modder, just throwing my ideas here

It wouldn't be easier to make a 1950s date than a 1965 , I also think that 1960s would be more balanced, as i think that NATO and USA were much stronger in the 1950s due americas much larger arsenal of nuclear bombs. While in the 1960s it was swifting a lot more, USSR also didn't have a navy worth mentioning in the 1950s but they did in the 1960s, so if one started in 1950 and made it realistic any direct war between soviets and america would just be soviets getting nuked, and there wouldn't even be a real navy, so why would a player ever bother with naval research at all ^^?

 

[dasVerruckteJoe]

hopefully if it has the workshop it might be easier to mod

 

[MarcoRossolini]

I think the emphasis should be in achieving your aims through non-violent means. All out war means MAD which nobody wants. The best Cold War games in my opinion emphasise this tightrope of both seeking to achieve your goals and at the same time not going overboard in causing nuclear war.

Of course, that does mean that most of what makes HoI4 Hoi4 goes out the window.

 

[77Hawk77]

I think the emphasis should be in achieving your aims through non-violent means. All out war means MAD which nobody wants. The best Cold War games in my opinion emphasise this tightrope of both seeking to achieve your goals and at the same time not going overboard in causing nuclear war.

Of course, that does mean that most of what makes HoI4 Hoi4 goes out the window.

Well what I was thinking was that Soviets and Americans are patrons of war, for a lot of the time, using political power and weapon supplies to make other countries change ideology. I have planned tech, doctrine or focus, that allows for more volenteers and expiditionary forces. i'll probably rename volenteers to "send military advisors" ;p.

Either way this allows you to have conflicts in proxy wars which is very cold war like i think. A direct insentive for this i think, is that a lot of nations in the first and second world will not have a lot of minerals, US for example has basically no tungsten mines, so making third world countries with tungsten align to America will be a priority for a US player I think.

 

[sjord1]

well, I see one more problem to this: most wars in the 1960s were guerilla wars. these are really difficult to simulate in HoI IV, as the game assumes there must be a frontline, which doesn't exist in guerilla wars. one could try using supplies as a means of simulation, making sure guerilla's barely need any supplies at all. in remote regions this would make the fight more even, but still the problem with the non-existant frontline is still there. Which is a reason I thought the 50s were great, as things like the Korea War are easier to simulate.

 

[77Hawk77]

well, I see one more problem to this: most wars in the 1960s were guerilla wars. these are really difficult to simulate in HoI IV, as the game assumes there must be a frontline, which doesn't exist in guerilla wars. one could try using supplies as a means of simulation, making sure guerilla's barely need any supplies at all. in remote regions this would make the fight more even, but still the problem with the non-existant frontline is still there. Which is a reason I thought the 50s were great, as things like the Korea War are easier to simulate.

I agree guerilla wars are pretty tough, right now i am thinking of making a guerilla doctrine, which pretty much disallow you to occupy non-cores or something like that. But i wouldn't say that most wars were guerilla wars, i'd say a lot of wars had guerillas in them, but in 1965 chinese civil war and cuban revolution are already over and i feel like they are the biggest examples of large scale guerilla wars.

 

[sjord1]

I agree guerilla wars are pretty tough, right now i am thinking of making a guerilla doctrine, which pretty much disallow you to occupy non-cores or something like that. But i wouldn't say that most wars were guerilla wars, i'd say a lot of wars had guerillas in them, but in 1965 chinese civil war and cuban revolution are already over and i feel like they are the biggest examples of large scale guerilla wars.

Ever heard of Algeria, Angola, Vietnam?.. just to name a few...... All in all there were few wars, but these wars which there were were mostly guerilla wars. all in all this problem should not be underestimated

 

[77Hawk77]

Vietnam had actual field battles though and we can simply split it up and give the south a big partisan risk. For Angola i am thinking i will split up angola into UNITA and MPLA being in a civil war for Angola, while angola itself is at war with portugal to begin with.

Algerian war ended in 1962 aswell, so it wouldn't matter either
World War 2 had tons of Guerilla fighters but that never stopped hearts of iron from being a not making it a major mechanic, i am sure we can make fun combat without it

 

[Veneke]

HoI 4 actually has a way to simulate guerrilla warfare. There is a border attrition mechanic that they used to simulate the border war between Mao and Chiang which can probably be appropriated to serve to simulate guerrillas and other insurgencies. (Dev diary re: border attrition - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-development-diary-4th-of-march-2016.911900/).

Similarly HoI 4's nuclear weapons simulate low-yield tactical nuclear weapons very well too, which is all you really need when you get right down to it. A strategic exchange is a game-over scenario (Broken-Backed War theory notwithstanding).

I'd be happy to help out btw. Do get in touch if you decide to get the ball rolling on this.

 

[77Hawk77]

HoI 4 actually has a way to simulate guerrilla warfare. There is a border attrition mechanic that they used to simulate the border war between Mao and Chiang which can probably be appropriated to serve to simulate guerrillas and other insurgencies. (Dev diary re: border attrition - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-development-diary-4th-of-march-2016.911900/).

Similarly HoI 4's nuclear weapons simulate low-yield tactical nuclear weapons very well too, which is all you really need when you get right down to it. A strategic exchange is a game-over scenario (Broken-Backed War theory notwithstanding).

I'd be happy to help out btw. Do get in touch if you decide to get the ball rolling on this.

This seems very useful indeed, i hope we can make it work without borders, but if not, one could place "stronghold" provinces in the countries that has the civil war/insurgency.

Thank you for the offer of help, that makes us 2 for starters, and i am pretty sure i've seen atleast 2 others in the past saying they would want to make something aswell.

 

[Matt the Czar]

I'll probably experiment with the EU Tools when the game comes out. I'd like to do the map. Maybe a 1947 start, just before the German occupation zones merge. Nationalist China is still around in the mainland then.

 

[Evan05]

Please do a 1955 start.

 

[Matt the Czar]

So, the merits of different start dates, according to Wikipedia:


1947[edit]

• January 1: The American and British zones of control in Germany are united to form the Bizone also known as Bizonia.
• March 12: President Harry Truman announces the Truman Doctrine starting with the giving of aid to Greece and Turkey in order to prevent them from falling into the Soviet sphere
• April 16: Bernard Baruch, in a speech given during the unveiling of his portrait in the South Carolina House of Representatives, coins the term "Cold War" to describe relations between the United States and the Soviet Union.
• May 22: US extends $400 million of military aid to Greece and Turkey, signalling its intent to contain communism in the Mediterranean.
• June 5: Secretary of State George Marshall outlines plans for a comprehensive program of economic assistance for the war-ravaged countries of Western Europe. It would become known throughout the world as the Marshall Plan.
• July 11: The US announces new occupation policies in Germany. The occupation directive JCS 1067, whose economic section had prohibited "steps looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany [or] designed to maintain or strengthen the German economy", is replaced by the new US occupation directive JCS 1779 which instead notes that "An orderly, prosperous Europe requires the economic contributions of a stable and productive Germany."
• August 14: India and Pakistan gain independence from the United Kingdom.
• September: The Soviet Union forms the Communist Information Bureau (COMINFORM) with which it dictates the actions of leaders and communist parties across its spheres of influence.
• November 14: The United Nations passes a resolution calling for the withdrawal of foreign soldiers from Korea, free elections in each of the two administrations, and the creation of a UN commission dedicated to the unification of the peninsula.
• December 30: In Romania, King Michael I of Romania is forced to abdicate by Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, the monarchy is abolished and the Popular Republic of Romania is instituted instead. The Communist Party will rule the country until December 1989.

1950[edit]

• January 5: The United Kingdom recognizes the People's Republic of China. The Republic of China severs diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom.
• January 19: China officially diplomatically recognizes Vietnam as independent from France.
• January 21: The last Kuomintang soldiers surrender on continental China.
• February 12: The Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China sign a pact of mutual defense.
• March 11: Kuomintang leader Chiang Kai-shek moves his capital to Taipei, Taiwan, establishing a stand-off with the People's Republic of China.
• April 17: United States State Department Director of Policy Planning Paul Nitze issues NSC-68, a classified brief, arguing for the adoption of containment as the cornerstone of United States foreign policy. It would dictate US policy for the next twenty years.
• May 11: Robert Schuman describes his ambition of a united Europe. Known as the Schuman Declaration, it marks the beginning of the creation of the European Community.
• June 25: North Korea invades South Korea. The Soviet Union cannot veto, as it is boycotting the Security Council over the admission of People's Republic of China. Eventually, the number of countries operating under the UN aegis increases to 16: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the Philippines, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
• July 4: United Nations forces engage North Korean forces for the first time, in Osan. They fail to halt the North Korean advance, and fall southwards, towards what would become the Pusan Perimeter.
• September 30: United Nations forces land at Inchon. Defeating the North Korean forces, they press inland and re-capture Seoul.
• October 2: United Nations forces cross the 38th parallel, into North Korea.
• October 5: Forces from the People's Republic of China mobilize along the Yalu River.
• October 22: Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, falls to United Nations forces.
• October 22: China intervenes in Korea with 300,000 soldiers, catching the United Nations by surprise. However, they withdraw after initial engagements.
• November 15: United Nations forces approach the Yalu River. In response, China intervenes in Korea again, but with a 500,000 strong army. This offensive forces the United Nations back towards South Korea.

1955[edit]

• February 24: The Baghdad Pact is founded by Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, and the United Kingdom. It is committed to resisting Communist expansion in the Middle East.
• March: Soviet aid to Syria begins. The Syrians will remain allies of the Soviets until the end of the Cold War.
• April: The Non-Aligned Movement is pioneered by Jawaharlal Nehru of India, Sukarno of Indonesia, Tito of Yugoslavia, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt and Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana. This movement was designed to be a bulwark against the 'dangerous polarization' of the world at that time and to restore balance of power with smaller nations. It was an international organization of states considering themselves not formally aligned with or against any major power bloc.
• May 5: Allies end military occupation of West Germany.
• May 9: West Germany joins NATO and begins rearmament.
• May 14: The Warsaw Pact is founded in Eastern Europe and includes East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Albania, Bulgaria, and the Soviet Union. It acts as the Communist military counterpart to NATO.
• May 15: Austria is neutralized and allied occupation ends.
• July 18: President Dwight D. Eisenhower of the United States, Prime Minister Anthony Eden of the United Kingdom, Premier Nikolai A. Bulganin of the Soviet Union, and Prime Minister Edgar Faure of France, known as the 'Big Four', attend the Geneva Summit. Also in attendance was Nikita Khrushchev of the Soviet Union.

I don't know, these all seem like good start dates.

 

[dasVerruckteJoe]

1947 could be cool

 

[Axe99]

Good luck Hawk, hope it goes well . I'm muddling away on my own naval things, but if I do anything that is useful to you, you're welcome to it. You will need to consider the impact of guided missiles on naval, air and strategic warfare (V2s should hopefully be moddable enough to manage this for strategic warfare at least, the other two may or may not be easy to shoehorn into HoI4's systems). On the by, 1965 seems a very late date to 'start' a cold war mod - I've always had the Berlin airlift as the 'start' of the cold war, and then Korea, the Vietnamese fight for independence and the Malayan emergency, amongst others, as the early wars/insurgencies.

The trick will be finding a way to make guerilla warfare work, as you've got that all the way through the period, be it Vietnam and Cambodia in the 60s and 70s or Afghanistan in the 80s. Good luck .

 

[Matt the Czar]

Good point about Guerrilla warfare. Maybe militia can have a special stat that makes them hard to fight with combined arms?

On Air guided missiles-- Maybe they can be a tech tree of weapon that starts off weak (Reflecting the difficulties of making accurate missiles,) and the becomes insanely strong at the end of the tree.

 

[Ottaro]

Well what I was thinking was that Soviets and Americans are patrons of war, for a lot of the time, using political power and weapon supplies to make other countries change ideology. I have planned tech, doctrine or focus, that allows for more volenteers and expiditionary forces. i'll probably rename volenteers to "send military advisors" ;p.

Either way this allows you to have conflicts in proxy wars which is very cold war like i think. A direct insentive for this i think, is that a lot of nations in the first and second world will not have a lot of minerals, US for example has basically no tungsten mines, so making third world countries with tungsten align to America will be a priority for a US player I think.

The problem with a cold war mod is that for a player, nukes will hurt, but it won't be the end of the world. You have no pops to worry about, and all factories and infrastructure can be rebuilt. MAD would completely destroy much of western civilization, something neither the Soviets nor the Americans wanted. A player wants war and doesn't care about civilians dying and I don't think you can replicate MAD (complete enviromental and human catastrophy, government institutions ruined and complete destruction of all major cities) in HOI4 which can easily make a cold war mod very shallow. I think Victoria 2 is a much better game to make a cold war mod for. It even exists, called "New World Order": https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/413vrb/new_world_order_nwo_mod_for_victoria_2/