Who most needs a nerf? Who most needs a buff?

[TheMeInTeam]

The problem is that if Russia/Ottomans decide to go east, your screwed. You cant westernize off of them and their powerful units + high technology will make mincemeat of yours, and thats before you consider their rediculously powerful NIs. Your only chance is if some other European powers decide that the Ottomans/Russians are too big a threat and decide to help you out.

You have the same problem with a minor in Europe, too. If a player decides to faceroll you, either someone helps you out or you're toast.

However, at least if you're not near someone like that from the start you have some time to work with diplo. Besides, nobody except Ottos/Muscovy wants to see either power chunking their way East.

It isn't arguable. Sweden's army will roll Russia's up like a carpet. The only thing holding Sweden even remotely in check is starting in the PU under Denmark that the ai tends to not try and break.

Sweden doesn't get to vassal feed India/China or start with an inside track to easy colonization, either.

 

[brifbates]

Sweden doesn't get to vassal feed India/China or start with an inside track to easy colonization, either.

This doesn't change the fact that Sweden is stronger than Russia in a head to head comparison, it just limits their over time expansion exploits due to OE and coring time.

 

[frolix42]

Hordes were 100% viable and strong when the game released, and were over-nerfed to the point that AI hordes largely do nothing now. "Fixing" that in DLC would come off as a pathetic money-grubbing move considering that they were mostly fine. All they really needed was for Westernization to dump them into a standard monarchy; instead they got nerfed down 100's and 100's of ADM points, were forced down a specific tree path, and even after completing it PI took away their ability to get legitimacy through gameplay, making being able to reform after a massive investment to do so LUCK-based.

No, that's not excusable and pushing them back to "viable" is not DLC territory.

I'm sorry you find this is inexcusable, but this is how games many games work now, and I imagine more will work this way in the future. In order to unlock and use my favorite Commanders in Company of Heroes 2, I had to buy them. But if you want a system that encourages developers to add content and continually patch the game, this is what we have. Of course I want all content to be free and available on release day, and for it to be perfectly patched and correctly balanced at the same time.

I played a long campaign and mostly successful as Crimea after the 1.2 patch was released, and they as a horde didn't seem particularly unbalanced then and they don't feel particularly unbalanced now. I do not think hordes are ahistorically harder to play as, considering that the hordes of Central Asia were highly decentralized and in the long run crippled their growth. But if you want to play a game where you can roll over Europe like (or as) Batu Khan, that is CK2.

Also there exists a mod which gives all nations Western Tech if a balanced game is your primary concern. I would agree that in the game right now non-Westerners fall behind in military too soon. For an ideally historical simulation, Western Tech should just about equal non-Western in 1444, be slightly ahead in 1550 and significantly ahead by 1700.

Westernization should be much more difficult and not as it, easy with the Exploration exploit, since no nations reached parity (maybe Russia almost did) with Western nations until Victoria's timeframe. Probably non-Westerns should need to have completed an idea group to reform, just like the hordes do now.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm sorry you find this is inexcusable, but this is how games many games work now, and I imagine more will work this way in the future. In order to unlock and use my favorite Commanders in Company of Heroes 2, I had to buy them. But if you want a system that encourages developers to add content and continually patch the game, this is what we have. Of course I want all content to be free and available on release day, and for it to be perfectly patched and correctly balanced at the same time.

What isn't excusable is to break a strong aspect of a product and sell the fix.

Westernization doesn't even need exploration; simply conquering Morocco or if Nomad/Chinese you can even conquer Mali and vassal --> annex will do.

 

[Novacat]

It isn't arguable. Sweden's army will roll Russia's up like a carpet. The only thing holding Sweden even remotely in check is starting in the PU under Denmark that the ai tends to not try and break.

Well, Sweden does have one disadvantage: Western tech group. Cant vassalize India/China so theres really no point for Sweden to go into Russia and Siberia.

I'm sorry you find this is inexcusable, but this is how games many games work now, and I imagine more will work this way in the future. In order to unlock and use my favorite Commanders in Company of Heroes 2, I had to buy them. But if you want a system that encourages developers to add content and continually patch the game, this is what we have. Of course I want all content to be free and available on release day, and for it to be perfectly patched and correctly balanced at the same time.

This argument is full of crap and you know it. If any game company decided to take away release content in a patch and then sell it later as DLC just because it proved to be popular, there would be an uproar. It would be all over gaming sites and there would even be calls to boycott.

 

[frolix42]

What isn't excusable is to break a strong aspect of a product and sell the fix.

I don't think hordes are broken or unviable now, unless you think it's broken and unviable that their technology and administration doesn't match The Mamluks or the other Muslim Kingdoms. I don't. Even if they were broken I'm not so conspiracy minded to think Paradox broke them in order to sell a DLC. I am thinking that if they do get a DLC, it will probably buff them and open up opportunities for them.

Westernization doesn't even need exploration; simply conquering Morocco or if Nomad/Chines you can even conquer Mali and vassal --> annex will do.

If the reason for this sentence existing is you sarcastically commenting on how merely sharing a border with a Western allows you to westernize is silly, I would agree with you.

However if you're saying that Exploration isn't the way to westernize for the vast majority of non-westerns, you're wrong. Exploration is the easiest and most realistic way to get a border with a European and every skilled player who wants to westernize does it. How would Chinese Tech even begin to see Morocco or Mali until around 1700? With Chinese Tech the seas around Africa don't get uncovered until near the end of the game, sometimes never. And those powerful Nomad fleets should have no problem beating Morocco. Not to mention being usually impossible, this tactic of sending an invasion fleet around Africa in order to conquer distant Morocco of all places is much more difficult and absurd than colonizing Africa. Be serious.

The only non-westerns who shouldn't get exploration for their first idea are those who don't begin with a border with a Western nation. Golden Horde and Kazan if they can conquer to a border with Genoa. Morrocco and Algeirs should probably get Exploration later on for reasons unrelated to Westernization.

 

[Trickrs]

Nerf: Hordes
Buff: Sweden

 

[frolix42]

Nerf: Hordes
Buff: Sweden

Please explain? I think hordes are pretty much were they should be, but some people think they should be buffed.

 

[RobRoy3]

Please explain? I think hordes are pretty much were they should be, but some people think they should be buffed.

I'm pretty sure he's just trolling. Either that, or he just posted it backwards.

While you could argue AGAINST nerfing Sweden (I would, but I'm prejudiced against country-specific nerfing, especially when there is no evidence that it becomes consistently dominant when AI controlled), this is the first time I've heard anyone asserting that they need a buff.

Hordes could probably use a buff, IMHO, though I can see the argument against it. Haven't heard any credible reason to nerf them, nor seen any serious calls to do so, and I would argue against it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If the reason for this sentence existing is you sarcastically commenting on how merely sharing a border with a Western allows you to westernize is silly, I would agree with you.

It's a combo reason statement. It does nicely illustrate the ludicrous nature of westernization, but also serves as a tip to players who believe you must colonize to westernize early; especially as Muslim tech nations that isn't the case. As for my personal feelings on it, IMO they should leave it for the time being because it allows non-Europeans a chance to be less uncompetitive. However, ideally westernization isn't even a thing, and the penalties in other tech groups is less severe such that under the right circumstances they can be competitive.

For Chinese, you still want to colonize, and you would indeed want exploration soonish (IE 1st or 2nd)...but you don't have to wait. Go take out an AI, vassal it, and get started earlier. The only reason not to do it is if you're still busy vassal feeding Ming's land or something.

Be serious.

I am. Slap on a conquistador, get military access from the mamluks, and give Morocco a loan...or just walk through to Songhai. With tropical climate this is much faster than colony hopping, which you still want to do to block Europe out of Indonesia and obviously you still want to colonize that yourself.

The only non-westerns who shouldn't get exploration for their first idea are those who don't begin with a border with a Western nation. Golden Horde and Kazan if they can conquer to a border with Genoa.

Unless a human player is Muscovy, GH and Kazan are best off conquering straight to Sweden, and ASAP. Even Uzbek should, via DoW on Perm, unless harassed by Timurids. Muslim nations can see their targets immediately. India sees west in the early-mid 1500's.

The real issue is what would you take that's actually better than exploration? Only possible choices in my mind are Expansion (when colonizing Siberia is practical), diplomacy (vassal feeding in Middle East or something), or Religious. Otherwise non-landlocked nations should probably pick exploration and colonize if they can realistically colonize.

 

[frolix42]

I've seen your Civ videos, but you do not understand EU4 yet.

It's a combo reason statement. It does nicely illustrate the ludicrous nature of westernization, but also serves as a tip to players who believe you must colonize to westernize early; especially as Muslim tech nations that isn't the case. As for my personal feelings on it, IMO they should leave it for the time being because it allows non-Europeans a chance to be less uncompetitive. However, ideally westernization isn't even a thing, and the penalties in other tech groups is less severe such that under the right circumstances they can be competitive.

You should not be giving tips on westernization to anyone.

Slap on a conquistador, get military access from the mamluks, and give Morocco a loan...or just walk through to Songhai. With tropical climate this is much faster than colony hopping, which you still want to do to block Europe out of Indonesia and obviously you still want to colonize that yourself.

You're not serious. You were trying (and failed) to make the ridiculous point that you can easily westernize without Exploration Ideas but the ludicrous method you suggest requires Conquistadors.

Unless a human player is Muscovy, GH and Kazan are best off conquering straight to Sweden, and ASAP. Even Uzbek should, via DoW on Perm, unless harassed by Timurids. Muslim nations can see their targets immediately. India sees west in the early-mid 1500's.

Russia has superior Tech, large manpower, unaccepted culture and religion and you say that westernizing from Sweden this way is easier for hordes than conquering a path to a border with Genoa? This is much harder and more inefficient than my original suggestion. Maybe you want to destroy Russia as a horde, but that's aside from westernization. I am wondering if you've played EU4 more than briefly, none of your advice makes any sense.

 

[Novacat]

Everyone ignore the obvious troll, you guys should know the drill by now.

frolix, you do realize that your 'Exploration uber alles' strat is getting nerfed by Paradox. You wont be able to core using fleet basing rights anymore.

 

[Red John]

Aren't horde troops ever so slightly better at the very beginning? Or am I imagining things?

Maybe that was in EU3.

 

[Novacat]

They are better in 1444, as soon as an eastern/ottoman/western country upgrades from miltech 3 to miltech 4, that superiority vanishes. By miltech 5, Europeans will have equal troops in pips and be one or two techs ahead which is a deathsentence for the hordes. By miltech 12, hordes wont even be able to fight siege stacks and win.

 

[Red John]

They are better in 1444, as soon as an eastern/ottoman/western country upgrades from miltech 3 to miltech 4, that superiority vanishes. By miltech 5, Europeans will have equal troops in pips and be one or two techs ahead which is a deathsentence for the hordes.

Alas, poor hordes.

Thanks.

 

[frolix42]

This is getting way off topic.

Everyone ignore the obvious troll, you guys should know the drill by now.

frolix, you do realize that your 'Exploration uber alles' strat is getting nerfed by Paradox. You wont be able to core using fleet basing rights anymore.

It crossed my mind but I'm not yet convinced TheMeInTeam is a troll, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm glad that you won't be able to core using fleet basing rights, but that won't by itself change the fact that Exploration is virtually the only way to westernize.
How would this effect the obvious strategy of an non-Western nation colonizing around Africa until it finds a Portugese or Spainish colony?

 

[Novacat]

It crossed my mind but I'm not yet convinced TheMeInTeam is a troll.

I was talking about Trickrs

I'm glad that you won't be able to core using fleet basing rights, but that won't by itself change the fact that Exploration is virtually the only way to westernize.
How would this effect the obvious strategy of an non-Western nation colonizing around Africa until it finds a Portugese or Spainish colony?

Well, for one, unless you were in India, you wont have enough colonization range to reach Africa.

 

[frolix42]

I was talking about Trickrs



Well, for one, unless you were in India, you wont have enough colonization range to reach Africa.

Good point, though you do if you colonize Malaccas and reach Diplo Tech 7

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've seen your Civ videos, but you do not understand EU4 yet.

Is insulting me the best you can do now ?

You should not be giving tips on westernization to anyone.

You should not be posting irrelevant drivel in general, but hey. Whatever works.

You're not serious. You were trying (and failed) to make the ridiculous point that you can easily westernize without Exploration Ideas but the ludicrous method you suggest requires Conquistadors.

One ludicrous method I suggested requires them. The others do not. Muslim sees Morocco right away obviously. However, Indian group also sees them by early 1500's, and you only need to get MA from Mamluks (or Ottos if they won that already) --> through Tripoli/Tunisia/Algiers. Canceled loan CB usually works, but no-CB is ok if it doesn't. Then, you vassal/sell back over 2 wars. Start westernization mid-late 1500's.

Can you do it faster with exploration? Sure. Must you go exploration every single game to westernize and have a huge blob? No. Is it ETA on availability of westernization w/o colonies in the 1700's, even as Chinese?

Give me a break. You're talking as if I haven't played the game, but with comments like you call your own credibility into question. In SP, Europeans hit India/Asia by the early-mid 1600's. If you're blobbed, that's basically the latest you'll have it available.

Russia has superior Tech, large manpower, unaccepted culture and religion and you say that westernizing from Sweden this way is easier for hordes than conquering a path to a border with Genoa? This is much harder and more inefficient than my original suggestion. Maybe you want to destroy Russia as a horde, but that's aside from westernization. I am wondering if you've played EU4 more than briefly, none of your advice makes any sense.

1. Orthodox converts easily at high piety.
2. There are cores to rip out of Muscovy, in addition to their vassals.
3. Novgorod almost always piles on if you trash them, letting you vassal --> feed vassal
4. Muscovy is the single greatest threat to a Sunni horde in the game, and arguably any horde north of Qara Qoyunulu, and it will never get much easier than at the start, where against the AI on your own land, you actually have stronger units. You either do it then, or wait until long after westernization + tech catchup.

At the very least, beating Perm out of them is necessary if you want an easy Horde game, westernization or not. Fighting through Crimea means running afoul of the Ottomans, who are very useful as allies. The point isn't that this is the easiest path for westernization, but rather it's something you want to do regardless, and if you do it, you have Sweden or Livonian Order.

Well, for one, unless you were in India, you wont have enough colonization range to reach Africa.

Actually at 240 range (tech 3 + 3rd exploration idea) you can eventually get there from any province with a port. It would take an ETERNITY as Manchu though heck you could do it even then (at some point, going East is faster though). Taiwan --> Indonesia --> Andamans --> Maldives --> Mahe --> Madagascar --> Africa main continent...just pick that chain up wherever you can. But who wants to do this every single game?

 

[frolix42]

Is insulting me the best you can do now ?

I'm saying that you don't understand how EU4 works yet, and demonstrated why.

Westernization doesn't even need exploration; simply conquering Morocco or if Nomad/Chinese you can even conquer Mali and vassal --> annex will do.

Slap on a conquistador, get military access from the mamluks, and give Morocco a loan...or just walk through to Songhai. With tropical climate this is much faster than colony hopping, which you still want to do to block Europe out of Indonesia and obviously you still want to colonize that yourself.

You're trying to convince me that Exploration isn't the easiest way to Westernize for most non-Westerns, then cite me a strategy which requires Exploration. Why would you go through all that trouble to core Berber lands anyways, when there are perfectly good Iberian Colonies in Africa to settle next to?

Actually at 240 range (tech 3 + 3rd exploration idea) you can eventually get there from any province with a port. It would take an ETERNITY as Manchu though heck you could do it even then (at some point, going East is faster though). Taiwan --> Indonesia --> Andamans --> Maldives --> Madagascar --> Africa main continent...just pick that chain up wherever you can. But who wants to do this every single game?

Why are you trying to argue with me then? This was the point I made in my original post.

Westernization should be much more difficult and not as it, easy with the Exploration exploit,