Who is the most realistic?

[Commander666]

I was reading about HOI3 in the http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Hearts_of_Iron_3 and came across this claim:

"The first realistic logistic system ever in a strategy game."

Ammh... if true, that would imply that AoD's logistic system is either not realistic, or AoD followed HOI3. But did AoD actually not precede HOI3? And we all know the AoD logistic system is not just realistic, but actually of the highest standard, right?

Considering the claim comes from Paradox Wiki (which are meant to educate) I wonder if a correction is in order?

 

[bosman]

HoI 3 is older. There was a lot of complains about this game despite a lot of praise was given too. That might have been one of the reasons AoD has came to life, although i doubt, that several weeks could have been so decisive.

 

[Commander666]

Correct...checking I see that HOI3 was released in August 7, 2009 and AoD on February 23, 2010.[1]

So, I guess they are the "1st realistic logistic system". That would make AoD "the BEST logistic system".

 

[bosman]

Not that i'm against AoD's logistic system, but for me the term "best" is somehow arguable and it doesn't only applies to be a matter of gameplay comfort or performance but also in terms of realism. It seems that logistic system in AoD reflects reality more than in other HoI games, but IMO it's not exactly true.
Surely it extends some simplifications, however some details like supply routes based on infrastructure are only theoretically correct, cause they are considered as constant streams without any prioritization, which simply doesn't exist in reality. In reality the logistics is based on regular, repeated transportation. I mean, in some (although probably less) aspects an old classic logistic system is at least not worse than new, while new introduces simplified ESE relation to stream instead of direct infra.
So while supply depots and unit stockpiles are realistic, the streams in current form using very limited number of depots are not realistic. Everyone knows a trick with surrounding capital to drop down ESE in rest of provinces. An old system assumes that every province has supply depot, thus divides logistic to global (TC) and local (infra).

 

[Commander666]

In reality the logistics is based on regular, repeated transportation. I mean, in some (although probably less) aspects an old classic logistic system is at least not worse than new, while new introduces simplified ESE relation to stream instead of direct infra. So while supply depots and unit stockpiles are realistic, the streams in current form using very limited number of depots are not realistic.

Comparisons are all relative . It can be argued that HOI3's claim of "1st realistic logistic system" isn't true at all... there being little realism about any war game's logistics system precisely for the reasons you mention - and many others reasons which we find when examining true WWII logistics. And AoD using an ESE based system is very unrealistic because the final supply at the front is not derived by any specific supply trace but rather includes all the possible ESE traces to calculate a theoretical figure.

Unfortunately the maps these war games run on can not accommodate the full reality of WWII supply. So it comes down to trying for what is "best". Closeness to realism is one measure of best, but so is simplicity for reducing computer calculations to increase game speed. Certainly "best" is arguable by any standard one wishes to consider.

I was only considering how AoD calculates the supply to result in rapid effects upon changing combat modifiers with increases or decreases in available supply. That I do think AoD does best compared to the other games, but how it accomplishes that may not be the best way when considering supply movement realistically.

 

[bosman]

I didn't intend to criticise really, only to point the truth, because the main problem is, that if you play AoD you actually don't get as much of benefits from its logistic system as many players expect. Rather you have to face a gameplay with growing lag, which becomes just horrible later.

At first i completely enjoyed playing AoD, but after several years, while tried DH it feels so annoying to wait for anything, that i really hesitate to find it worthy, especially, that some things are solved differently with better results for balance.
It is simply a matter of pros and cons. In this case i'm not sure if pros are over cons in overall experience. There will always be players preferring AoD over DH or IC, but at least in case of DH, you can see, that more people prefer that style.

 

[Commander666]

You are quite right, I think. I've noticed AoD get really slow in some games that went to the later years. So we might conclude that HoI3 was the first.... and the "best" depends on what one chooses to like.

 

[bosman]

So we might conclude that HoI3 was the first.... and the "best" depends on what one chooses to like.

Yeah, although big LOL is, that HoI3 is so resource demanding compared to AoD, that i tried it only twice, i think On the other hand offers significantly more details.

 

[Commander666]

Yeah, although big LOL is, that HoI3 is so resource demanding compared to AoD, that i tried it only twice, i think On the other hand offers significantly more details.

LOL = Lots of Luck, Lots of Love, or what???

But all those extra details - especially the many extra provinces - may or may not be desirable depending on player preferences.

One of the things I like very much about AoD is its far greater "visual clarity" compared to anything else in the Hearts of Iron family except for the earlier HoI2 games that had a more sensible choice of colors hues used. Of course, my preference is related to laptop screen size and being a bit far sighted. But I really like simple and distinctive unit outlines (versus those very pretty real life images) so - in the heat of battle I don't mistakenly send off a lone division of leg infantry when I wanted it to be motorized infatry. In fact, I have serious criticisms of what many might term "pretty units" or very complex maps.

AoD has only one icon fault - INT versus FTR with those defining tiny triangles on the wing leading edge for the INT not always being prominently visible so that accidental mixing can occur in a stack.

The only other visual fault with AoD is the incorrect choice of color hues in some maps. But all the rest - considering the principles of "clarity", AoD really is better than the many other maps and unit identifications that look very pretty, IMO. I base my judgment on the global dimension of the game's map. So, while I also think the complex maps and far more realistic units are indeed very nice, I don't really find that helping me play the game better.

 

[bosman]

@Commander666
LOL - Lots of Laugh

My opinion about visual side of AoD has changed a bit or rather i find DH's look better. Actually i play DH with mods, so it's another story, but in general i think it's a matter of some kind of habit, to what you play most often. Just a year ago i would say AoD looks and feels better. Now i'm likely to say it depends...

 

[commanderx]

My piece of mind - Black Ice for Hears of Iron 3

http://www.moddb.com/mods/black-ice

 

[Commander666]

My piece of mind - Black Ice for Hears of Iron 3

http://www.moddb.com/mods/black-ice

Now that is a fantastic map. I guess it comes down to the degree one wishes to immerse themselves into something. Like its name, Black Ice is trying for the ultimate in a known quality.

Certainly I don't defend the AoD map beyond "a good map with excellent clarity". Unfortunately, the many huge map errors and serious flaws in the AoD map have never been given the attention they should have gotten. So I can understand others not thinking much of it based just on the fact that it behaves incorrectly.... as in ships can travel thru land. But that is actually not a fault of the map.

However, beaches on the incorrect opposite sides of provinces, ports incorrectly placed, the absence of the Kiel Canal, and other things are map weaknesses.

Perhaps the greatest "map fault" in AoD is how the movement arrows for units get displayed. These overly thick arrows, as we all know, regularly pass thru provinces that the units never transverse. The situation is so horribly confused that the only explanation is:
a) because of the thick arrows but the designers wanting smooth bends, the arrows accidentally run thru neighboring provinces which the units do not transverse (Conclusion: map error) or
b) we purposely did it that way to give some "fog of war" (Conclusion: It works really well having resulted in me making countless mission errors and wasting days of travel time to re-mission once I learned the actual movement path).

What interests me most though is how such a well known behavior migrates itself into the massive effort involved with creating such a complex new product like Black Ice. I am, of course speaking of the flight path of Hitler's aircraft on Sept 3rd, 1939 as he flies from Berlin to Konigsberg as shown if one follows commanderx's link and views the images (scroll to about 8th image or so).

The question there is, "Does the actual flight path go over northern Danzig as appears, or not?" Of course, how absolutely pretty Danzig City looks from the air is not my criticism.... there is no doubt it represents a degree of extremism as only black ice can give if considering driving in slippery winter conditions. The map is at the cutting edge of extreme, but the movement paths seem to have retained the original AoD flaw (or purposeful Fog of War?).

If the truth is that it is a surviving flaw from AoD - actually a huge map error that stems from way back with the creation of HoI - then I am not that impressed. If, on the other hand, it is purposeful fog-of-war I would argue that it really is just a map fault (and fog of war should pertain to the enemy movements and not your own pilot's decision of where he intends to fly). Perhaps I should post that screen shot for this discussion, but if I did that in this thread here, then I would only get myself started on detailing what else is all wrong in the Black Ice map WHEN IT COMES TO A PROPER CONSIDERATION OF "VISUAL CLARITY".

However, what is really funny about the different errors, weakness or faults in all the gaming maps we might include in this discussion is the fact that the LAWS OF MAP CLARITY go back to ages ago. Just like one cannot re-invent the wheel by trying to construct wheels with flat sides, one cannot break these laws without suffering decreased map clarity. And - fortunately - examples of what is best clarity regarding everything contained in any map are all about us... and it only needs a little bit of studying to learn what is "true and tried thru the ages". If discussing aircraft movement paths, we need only look at any pilot's flight plan marked on any aeronautical map to so realize how flight paths are correctly super imposed on even the most complex maps with never so much as the width of the wings being any significant error. In short, aircraft flight paths when plotted on maps never bend, but only have sharp corners at the turns (because of map scale). And that simple fact totally eliminates silly map errors showing incorrect movement paths going wrongly thru neighboring provinces.

Now, if only Turkey and Putin were aware of that simple fact, there would be no doubt as to the crime of downing a hapless Soviet jet.

LOL

 

[Titan79]

You meant "Which is the most realistic?".

It amazes me that one who has been so pedantically finicky in the recent past when it comes to English grammar (i.e. in correcting others - one in particular - with a patently nagging attitude) could make such a glaring mistake.

 

[Hagar]

@Commander666
LOL - Lots of Laugh

My opinion about visual side of AoD has changed a bit or rather i find DH's look better. Actually i play DH with mods, so it's another story, but in general i think it's a matter of some kind of habit, to what you play most often. Just a year ago i would say AoD looks and feels better. Now i'm likely to say it depends...

Actually LOL is short for Laughing Out Loud - not that that changes much

As to realism, I reckon AoD + CORE is as realistic as you can get... Obviously I'm biased, but by and large that's the general opinion on the forums. Without wanting to downplay any of the other mods of course - there are some true gems out there.

 

[bosman]

@Hagar
Oh, i must have read from bad source

My last try of CORE was probably 4 years ago with AoD. I had an impression, that too many things were controlled by events especially production, but i have seen many interesting solutions, so maybe i will try it again.

 

[Commander666]

Actually LOL is short for Laughing Out Loud - not that that changes much

@Hagar
Oh, i must have read from bad source

Yah, definitely avoid those bad sources!

But on this one everybody is right... or wrong (however you are inclined to think).

Acronym Definition
LOL Laugh(ing) Out Loud
LOL Lots Of Love
LOL League of Legends (game)
LOL Little Old Lady
LOL Lots Of Laughs
LOL Labor of Love
LOL Loads of Love
LOL Land O' Lakes
LOL Lots Of Luck
LOL Loss of Life (insurance)
LOL Locks of Love (Lake Worth, Florida charity)
LOL List of Lists
LOL Lack of Love (game)
LOL Lowest of the Low
LOL Lady of the Lake
LOL Lots of Laughter
LOL List of Links
LOL Love of Life
LOL Language of Love
LOL Leg of Lamb
LOL Land of Lincoln
LOL Lord of Lords (Jesus)
LOL Learn Online
LOL Live-On-Line
LOL Live Out Loud
LOL Lightolier (Genlyte Group company)
LOL Lord of Life (Church)
LOL Laws of Life
LOL Loss of Light
LoL Lands of Lore (game)
LOL Loyal Orange Lodge
LOL Love On Line
LOL Legend of Legaia (video game)
LOL Living on Lipitor
LOL Lots of Lag (on-line gaming)
LOL Love Our Lord
LOL Land of Love
LOL Land of Legends (Canandaigua Speedway, New York)
LOL Lack of Laughter (less common)
LOL Log On Later
LOL Lots of Lemons
LOL Labels or Love (song by Fergie)
LOL Language of Literature
LOL Loss of Lock
LOL Lots of Licking
LOL Life of Loan (banking)
LOL Life of the Land
LOL Lots of Losers (Rocket Arena 3 clan)
LOL Load of Laughs
LOL Limit of Liability
LOL Lots of Lust
LOL Lord Oh Lord
LOL Lord of Lies (gaming)
LOL Lips on Lips
LOL Lots of Lollipops
LoL Line of Learning (UK education)
LOL Love Out Loud
LOL Laughing On Line
LOL League of Losers (wild 17 chess team)
LOL Loss of Load
LOL Ladies of Lallybroch
LOL Loser on Line
LOL Living on Line
LOL List Of Lights
LOL Lords of Legend (gaming)
LOL Lower Operating Limit
LOL Length of Lease
LOL Love of Literacy (teaching)
LOL Lautes Online Lachen (German: Loud Online Laughter)
LOL Loss of Line (telephony)
LOL Last or Least
LOL Lot of Lamers
LOL Lying Out Loud
LOL Lawyers on Line
LOL Lewd Obscene Language
LOL Leaning Over Laughing
LOL Limited Operational Life
LOL Lunatics on Line
LOL Less Of Lip
LOL Longitudinal Output Level
LOL Legend of Lothian (computer game)
LOL Limited Operation Life
LoL League of Lightness (gaming clan)
LOL Low Order Language
LOL Liar of Lies
LOL Lovelock, Derby Field Airport, Nevada (IATA code)
LOL Lying Online Laughter
LOL Lord of the Lambs
LOL Lord of Light
LOL Look of Love

LOL

 

[bosman]

@Commander666
Laughing on Lamer - might fit me

BTW, in the game i often experience Lack of Leaders

 

[Commander666]

Laughing on Lamer - might fit me

It might fit many as there is also a Lot of Lamers. Certainly there is a lot of choice and next time somebody writes LOL, I definitely will wonder.

 

[Hagar]

@Hagar
Oh, i must have read from bad source

My last try of CORE was probably 4 years ago with AoD. I had an impression, that too many things were controlled by events especially production, but i have seen many interesting solutions, so maybe i will try it again.

A lot has changed since for sure. Production still is heavily influenced by events and the tech tree if you're playing a nation as the US for instance, but that's to simulate the wiggle room nations had as to defense budgets prior to WWII. We do want it to be a realistic historical simulator rather than a game. So a US player will have to manage with a shoestring budget in the early years, especially as to manpower. But it will become a powerhouse once the rearmament initiatives kick in... And rares (like rubber) are, well, rare... Which in turn is addressed by synthetic production kicking in as you go along. But it all takes time and research. We do a lot of off-hand game tests, and we're pretty close to the historical result in terms of progress, number of military units etc. over the game's time frame. If your aim is to conquer the world as Bhutan then CORE isn't your cup-of-tea. But if you want a historical challenge and history lesson it surely is. Heck, we even have 54 unique funeral event images covering the era...

 

[Commander666]

We can see why you are the Minister of Propaganda. I think that was an extremely well put spiel.