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dorukdorucu

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I was expecting a pagan DLC after they said "As big as SoI or bigger." but since that means we get an infinite amount of new features... I'm cool. At least i can create a British Republic now :p
I'm curious if the pope will grant the republics Invasion cb's or not though.
 

justin6477

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I'm not unhappy that it's not Pagans. I want all the groups playable, and even if I don't play them (I don't play a lot of Muslims), I'm fine with paying for the DLCs since they fund mechanical upgrades that effect my game no matter what side I play.

I'm pretty convinced that Pagans might be the last major group on the list. To do it properly, I think they'll need to push the start date back. Preferably into the 900s. Pagans will also need mechanics that could be used for Republics and Theocracies. Look at this Noble Family thing in the Republics, chieftainship wasn't necessarily hereditary. Being a chief was about prestige and power, just like being the new doge is about power and wealth. Pagans would also need some nice religious aspects, and those could be introduced along with a Religion DLC since Pagans are the natural enemy of the holy orders.

If they're the last, it'll just make them the most polished.
 

dorukdorucu

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I'm not unhappy that it's not Pagans. I want all the groups playable, and even if I don't play them (I don't play a lot of Muslims), I'm fine with paying for the DLCs since they fund mechanical upgrades that effect my game no matter what side I play.

I'm pretty convinced that Pagans might be the last major group on the list. To do it properly, I think they'll need to push the start date back. Preferably into the 900s. Pagans will also need mechanics that could be used for Republics and Theocracies. Look at this Noble Family thing in the Republics, chieftainship wasn't necessarily hereditary. Being a chief was about prestige and power, just like being the new doge is about power and wealth. Pagans would also need some nice religious aspects, and those could be introduced along with a Religion DLC since Pagans are the natural enemy of the holy orders.

If they're the last, it'll just make them the most polished.
The chieftainship thing, as with most other stuff depends on which pagans we are talking about. Tengriists had a hereditary belief in which they believed in the "Kut" or the belief that Tengri, their main god bestoved the gift of rulşng to the kings dynasty. Having a king who isn't related to the last one in any dynastic way would cause unrest and etc.
While with the norse, i believe it was something like the best warrior, or the most prestigious person etc. can't be sure though as i don't know much about norse beliefs and the ruling system and other stuff.
 

justin6477

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The chieftainship thing, as with most other stuff depends on which pagans we are talking about. Tengriists had a hereditary belief in which they believed in the "Kut" or the belief that Tengri, their main god bestoved the gift of rulşng to the kings dynasty. Having a king who isn't related to the last one in any dynastic way would cause unrest and etc.
While with the norse, i believe it was something like the best warrior, or the most prestigious person etc. can't be sure though as i don't know much about norse beliefs and the ruling system and other stuff.

Yeah, I should've been more specific. I was referring to the European/Northern pagans, not so much the Steppe variety.

What I'd like to see for the Norse, Ugric, and Baltic pagans is some sort of open succession mechanic based on things like a military score, gold plundered, prestige, etc. Coupled with an Orthodox patriarchy inspired cult system. These cults would be dedicated to the major deities of their faiths, and being a member of one should confer benefits and maluses within your tribe. Sort of like a natural faction system. It's not like Pagans had heresies, so we need something to stand in for religious diversity. However, losing land shouldn't be the end of the road; as tribal leader you'd retain a small following among your immediate clan which is where something inspired by these trade holdings comes in.

I'm sure I can think of a few other mechanics, but these will do.
 

tuareg109

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I am happy they take some time to get the pagans right. Now to decide which patrician family I will play to dominate the all European trade, muahahaha!

The de Normandies! Normandy is in a prime position to dominate North Sea trade. Just revoke two cities, give your baronies to courtiers, and you have Grand Doge William.
 

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Im abit dissapointed, but republics were nr 2 in my request list so I cant complain.

I will say this doesnt sound exactly as large as SoI at first glance, but time will tell.
 

Takeo92

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i AM HAPPY thats not an unrealistic.. stuff again but i guess they will do pagan dlc some day too! so no worries.. i rather feel unconfortable cause there are no new Victoria dlcs.
 

dorukdorucu

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No, you could not be more wrong. Here is what it was.
"In reality the thing was of course dominated by the most influential members of the community, the heads of clans and wealthy families, but in theory one-man one-vote was the rule."
This was what i meant. More influence=Thing votes for you. Thing votes for you=You win.
Sorry i couldn't be more specific, i tried to mean the lack of an actual hereditary system and instead a parliament-ish ruling body which elected the king. Much like the feudal elective we currently have.

That is, unless i am getting even more wrong and have awfully misunderstood what the link says.
 

Spartanlemur

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Republics and pagans were both things I equally wanted to see in the game. Truthfully, I'm happy that they've done Republics though so the Commune of Rome can be playable not as a theocracy (historically inaccurate), but as the Republic it was!
 

Boblof

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The chieftainship thing, as with most other stuff depends on which pagans we are talking about. Tengriists had a hereditary belief in which they believed in the "Kut" or the belief that Tengri, their main god bestoved the gift of rulşng to the kings dynasty. Having a king who isn't related to the last one in any dynastic way would cause unrest and etc.
While with the norse, i believe it was something like the best warrior, or the most prestigious person etc. can't be sure though as i don't know much about norse beliefs and the ruling system and other stuff.
The pagan norse pretty much also went with dynastics with a religious twist, the major kingly dynasties in Scandinavia from the Vendel era and forward usually claimed to be of divine origin (The Ynglings claimed to be descendants of Ing aka Freyr, the Geatish Wulfings claimed to be descendants of the Wolf/Odin and the legendary Völsungs too were claiming descent from Odin... and the Jotun Hljod) and some kings could due to their bacgkround claim descendence from more than one (the founder of the House of Munsö in game claimed descendence from both the Völsungs and the Ynglings).

And I would imagine that this divine connection was quite important for the kings religious duties, the king was not just a general, he was also the leader of sacraficial ceremonies.
 

Wallain

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"In reality the thing was of course dominated by the most influential members of the community, the heads of clans and wealthy families, but in theory one-man one-vote was the rule."
This was what i meant. More influence=Thing votes for you. Thing votes for you=You win.
Sorry i couldn't be more specific, i tried to mean the lack of an actual hereditary system and instead a parliament-ish ruling body which elected the king. Much like the feudal elective we currently have.

That is, unless i am getting even more wrong and have awfully misunderstood what the link says.
You made it sound like "strong viking win raaagh", which it was not, but hey. :) It was a democracy, and of course a democracy elects someone with a certain amount of prestige and so on. It even builds up to specific clans/dynasties without intervention against it (equalizing wealth). I think the new republic system should function rather well for this, except that pagans should be able to hold castles independently of the cities that are tied to the top republic title, in order to represent the land that these families held independently of kingship for example.

An example: The king of Denmark has 3 cities and 4 castles. Upon his death the 3 cities will pass to the one who is elected king and the 4 castles will pass to the next head of his dynasty. Every title would function like this for the Norse. So if a Lord Mayor (Hövding) of Sjælland dies while having 2 cities and 2 castles and the successor to the county is not of his dynasty (due to republic election) his two cities would pass to the new Lord Mayor and his castles to the successor of his dynasty (who would now be a baron).

That is how I would picture the Norse functioning properly. I really want the feudalism and the democracy blurred into each other.
 

dorukdorucu

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You made it sound like "strong viking win raaagh", which it was not, but hey. :) It was a democracy, and of course a democracy elects someone with a certain amount of prestige and so on. It even builds up to specific clans/dynasties without intervention against it (equalizing wealth). I think the new republic system should function rather well for this, except that pagans should be able to hold castles independently of the cities that are tied to the top republic title, in order to represent the land that these families held independently of kingship for example.

An example: The king of Denmark has 3 cities and 4 castles. Upon his death the 3 cities will pass to the one who is elected king and the 4 castles will pass to the next head of his dynasty. Every title would function like this for the Norse. So if a Lord Mayor (Hövding) of Sjælland dies while having 2 cities and 2 castles and the successor to the county is not of his dynasty (due to republic election) his two cities would pass to the new Lord Mayor and his castles to the successor of his dynasty (who would now be a baron).

That is how I would picture the Norse functioning properly. I really want the feudalism and the democracy blurred into each other.

Haha well maybe :D
I knew that there is some sort of democracy with the Norse, however just couldn't put it the way i actually meant.
Also, i believe the system you are talking about is already implemented. They said that somewhere in the interwiew you can't inherit both republic and feudal holdings or something like that. So they each go to seperate people. They could certainly use it with the northern pagans as well.
Also, add colonisation for them! We should get Vinland, Greenland, Iceland etc. colonizable. Maybe through event chains? Maybe if you banish someone as a norse, they go out and explore some new land?((Which is, afaik what really happened))
 

Wallain

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Haha well maybe :D
I knew that there is some sort of democracy with the Norse, however just couldn't put it the way i actually meant.
Also, i believe the system you are talking about is already implemented. They said that somewhere in the interwiew you can't inherit both republic and feudal holdings or something like that. So they each go to seperate people. They could certainly use it with the northern pagans as well.
Also, add colonisation for them! We should get Vinland, Greenland, Iceland etc. colonizable. Maybe through event chains? Maybe if you banish someone as a norse, they go out and explore some new land?((Which is, afaik what really happened))
It is just a question of programming it right with the inheritance question in my suggestion. We've already got titles splitting between people with gavelkind and people being able to hold both temples and castles with penalties as a Muslim.

And yes, some of the exploration was by banishment, at least the famous discovery of Greenland and Vinland was a result of it. I am not sure it should be a feature though. The Norse were never really able to hold onto their colonization of Vinland, most likely due to native hostility. It would take tremendous funds to make anything worthwhile up there as you would have to drive out or conquer the natives. I think the prospect of Vinland is better dealt with in a mod, but I would be happy to see it in the standard game regardless.
 

dorukdorucu

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It is just a question of programming it right with the inheritance question in my suggestion. We've already got titles splitting between people with gavelkind and people being able to hold both temples and castles with penalties as a Muslim.

And yes, some of the exploration was by banishment, at least the famous discovery of Greenland and Vinland was a result of it. I am not sure it should be a feature though. The Norse were never really able to hold onto their colonization of Vinland, most likely due to native hostility. It would take tremendous funds to make anything worthwhile up there as you would have to drive out or conquer the natives. I think the prospect of Vinland is better dealt with in a mod, but I would be happy to see it in the standard game regardless.
Well, i believe Greenland never perished during the time period, and Vinland could have continued, if it was taken more seriously. Also, Aztec's had some contact with the Vikings from what i know((Not irl, SI)) and this would make it actually semi-historical. Maybe add a "Vinland Colonized" flag as a requirement for the SI events to fire?
 

markmid

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This thread was mostly intended to be a tongue-in-cheek response to the other thread. Don't worry, I'm definitely still looking forward to republics and will surely enjoy them, I just felt the people in the other thread were taking things too seriously and trying to claim superiority over those of us who did hope for pagans.

I had to hold a laugh in at the silliness of the first thread and couldn't bring myself to post there :D, but I shall post in this one for the fun of it! So huzzah!, or something.
 

Wallain

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Well, i believe Greenland never perished during the time period, and Vinland could have continued, if it was taken more seriously. Also, Aztec's had some contact with the Vikings from what i know((Not irl, SI)) and this would make it actually semi-historical. Maybe add a "Vinland Colonized" flag as a requirement for the SI events to fire?
Don't think we need to expand further on the SI concept. And you are right that Greenland kept standing through most of CK2. Besides, all this Vinland stuff is something you can add in mods(No seriously, it is perfectly possible). :)