I was playing a multiplayer game with a friend with him as Russia and me as Germany. We agree to peace until 1942, and in 1940 I take over Poland/France. He takes over Latvia/Lithuania, and then heads onward to Finland. With these won, he declares war on Tibet in order to maintain the wartime bonus for two years so that he can get a bonus for when we go to war. I, spotting this after a year, declare war on Tibet and bring him into war against the Allies. Who is more in the wrong in this situation?
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yes, he declared war on tibet in order to abuse a bug, or what should be a bug, where countries attacked by axis join the allies thus screwing me into a position where im at war with my friends.
I on the other hand operated within the game mechanics, and in reality
thats exactly what stalin would have done if he had the same options laid out infront of him. Maybe not with tibet, but going to war in order to boost production is certainly not "abuse".
Forcing russia into war with the allies by a bug situation is ridiculous. I shouldn't be automatically dragged into war with them just because germany declared war on the same country im at war with.
And aeden, quit trying to BS. You declared war on tibet within about 2 minutes of me, not a years play time.
I on the other hand operated within the game mechanics, and in reality
thats exactly what stalin would have done if he had the same options laid out infront of him. Maybe not with tibet, but going to war in order to boost production is certainly not "abuse".
Forcing russia into war with the allies by a bug situation is ridiculous. I shouldn't be automatically dragged into war with them just because germany declared war on the same country im at war with.
And aeden, quit trying to BS. You declared war on tibet within about 2 minutes of me, not a years play time.
Well it might of helped to set some house rules before the game. Neither of you is wrong. He went to war to get wartime bonus which, so it seems, wasn't declared illegal in your game.
Yes, I bet you think it is a crappy move (it's also exactly what Hitler would have done if he had had the same options laid out in front of him of course), but then it serves you right after pulling your own crappy move. Just "warring" a nation to get the wartime bonus to production is an exploit. Pretty clever reaction though if you ask me, esp judging by how much it pissed you off 
I wouldn't say that's necessarily an exploit. In real life, had the world's biggest enemies to democracy attacked a peace loving nation like Tibet, the Allies likely would've intervened and declared war on both parties in order to defend them.
That's funny no one seemed too upset when China rolled in and took over during the Cold War. Hrm.
BTW I think neither is wrong and I think it was a brilliant strategic move by Germany to DOW to pull Sov into unwanted war. Neither is wrong because there must not have been a rule against such a move but the response was swift and appropriate.
BTW I think neither is wrong and I think it was a brilliant strategic move by Germany to DOW to pull Sov into unwanted war. Neither is wrong because there must not have been a rule against such a move but the response was swift and appropriate.
You go to war to gain something - does it matter whether you go for a production bonus or for land? No. Does it matter whether you start 50 smaller wars, or just stall a war with finland etc. for the entire time? No.
Tell me how it makes sense that germany can hold a stick over everyone elses head by making all germany's enemies go to war with YOU simply by warring the same country as you? I wouldn't call that "clever"
You can't retract that DoW, and your beligerrance etc. doesn't matter in the slightest.
You don't think that if Hilter could have screwed USSR in the same way he wouldn't have?
I also think it is a clever answer to a gamey tactic. But ultimately it is up to you guys to decide this, the forumites weren't there and weren't playing. Is it really worth getting so worked up over. Wouldn't it be better to say, "wow dude you really screwed me, gg."
BTW you said, "Forcing russia into war with the allies by a bug situation is ridiculous. I shouldn't be automatically dragged into war with them just because germany declared war on the same country im at war with." but the same could be said about lowering CG by DoWing a nation that you really don't want or need to go to war with for any reason other than the CG hit. And just DoWing a nation shouldn't effect your CG there has to be a reason why your people would want to go to war with that nation for it to effect your CG IRL.
I also think it is a clever answer to a gamey tactic. But ultimately it is up to you guys to decide this, the forumites weren't there and weren't playing. Is it really worth getting so worked up over. Wouldn't it be better to say, "wow dude you really screwed me, gg."
BTW you said, "Forcing russia into war with the allies by a bug situation is ridiculous. I shouldn't be automatically dragged into war with them just because germany declared war on the same country im at war with." but the same could be said about lowering CG by DoWing a nation that you really don't want or need to go to war with for any reason other than the CG hit. And just DoWing a nation shouldn't effect your CG there has to be a reason why your people would want to go to war with that nation for it to effect your CG IRL.
i guess since we're ignoring any possible BUGS in the game and assuming this is the way its meant to work, then yea I guess GG thats it, game over. Congrats, you found a loophole in the DoW system.
Does it matter? Yes. Now you may not have any qualms about abusing loopholes in the game system and be fine with exploiting them but they remain loopholes and exploits, whether you like it or not, no matter how much you try to rationalize it.
The Germany DOWing Tibet causing them to join the Allies and that way bringing them at war with the Comintern also pretty much falls in that category but it's no worse than what you pulled. At least that was a reaction to another exploit.
The Germany DOWing Tibet causing them to join the Allies and that way bringing them at war with the Comintern also pretty much falls in that category but it's no worse than what you pulled. At least that was a reaction to another exploit.
Most of the MP gamers I know would consider this an exploit. Still, with Peace till '42 as you mentioned, I dont think SU needs to worry to much about war with the Allies, so for the sake of it, I would suggest you continue, and set better house-rules for next game.
Lews, can we please continue with our friendship and ignore this? I know it pissed you off grandly, but we put it to the community, and they have said their opinions. How about we just play another game some time but set up base rules about what we can do and can't? Please Lews?
Consider this hypothetical sequence of events:
1939 Sept: Allies and Axis in war
1939 Nov: Soviet declare war on Finland.
*Hypothetical*
1939 Dec: Germany declare war on Finland.
Would Finland be admitted to the Allies? Maybe?
Admittedly a far-fetched scenario, but it seems not beyond the deviousness of real politicians.
That said, this is just a computer game. Not worth breaking friendships over.
1939 Sept: Allies and Axis in war
1939 Nov: Soviet declare war on Finland.
*Hypothetical*
1939 Dec: Germany declare war on Finland.
Would Finland be admitted to the Allies? Maybe?
Admittedly a far-fetched scenario, but it seems not beyond the deviousness of real politicians.
That said, this is just a computer game. Not worth breaking friendships over.
Both are wrong. Hitler and Stalin were evil, and thus both people representing them are evil for the time of the representation!
Seriously though, I think both moves were equally questionable if you are talking pure ethics of abusing loopholes.
Seriously though, I think both moves were equally questionable if you are talking pure ethics of abusing loopholes.
BiB said:
My thoughts also. The SOV player is definitely the one at fault here. About all I would have done differently as the GER player would be to give the SOV player a notice that he had one week to make peace and stay at peace or I'd DoW Tibet, putting them in the Allies.
lewsrand said:
Lewsrand, you were using a loophole in the DOW/production system.
You haven't denyed that you were attacking Tibet just for the production bonus, so the fact that he was able to make you pay for that loophole is creative...
Clearly some additional house rules are in order. No unreasonable DOWs either to bring people into a war or to hold open a wartime production.
Otherwise Germany can just DOW on lux day one, take them and not anex them till its time to get Austria...