Who is Charlemagne's legal successor in game?

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

There are two Decisions in the game that seem to emulate Charlemagne.

These Decisions appear to be in complete conflict. Judging from the description, one is for the Germans and the other is for the Franks. To be Karl the Great's heir, which one should I choose?

 

[Riaman98]

Restore HRE was done by Ottonians (Saxons lol), restoring Carolingian empire was an impossible task Irl only for a fantasy gameplay. closest thing to Carolingian empire is short lived napoleon empire or EU.

 

[tilly]

my (admittedly poor) understanding of the situation is that technically the carolingian empire was ongoing at the time. one of the carolingians was nominally considered in charge of the rest of them, theres just not really any good way for ck3 to emulate that at present. you could SORT OF represent it with something like a tributary system but youd be getting really abstract and theres good arguments about how inaccurate that would be too

by the time the germans came along and did the hre, the succession situation had gone through such a clownshow that the carolingian empire had kind of lost any sort of authority it might once have purported to have. again, not really something the game can emulate rn - it wasnt some big solid realm that was shattered, it just kept having nonsense happen until everyone stopped caring enough to pretend it was a thing. very much like the later hre!

there are other forum users who are a lot more well informed about it than i am, but out of the two options here, i guess the latter would be what youre looking for? only provided you were following chuckies direct legal line with it though (which is more nebulous than youd like it to be, hence the succession issues)

 

[Aidanator800]

Restore HRE was done by Ottonians (Saxons lol), restoring Carolingian empire was an impossible task Irl only for a fantasy gameplay. closest thing to Carolingian empire is short lived napoleon empire or EU.

Charles the Fat managed to actually unite all of the Carolingian lands under his rule for a bit, but I think he was the only one who managed to achieve that in this timeframe.

 

[Ezumiyr]

There was no legal successor for the simple reason that there was no clear law to establish Charlemagne's theoretical succession. This was before proper feudal succession laws, when heirs were established either by the man in power as he was still alive and regnant, or at his death.
We can retroactively apply later succession traditions/laws, and if a ruler gathered enough power in the time it's probably how they would justify being the heir of Charlemagne too. Let's keep in mind that in western Europe, the key concept at play there wasn't that there was a sacred imperial bloodline (that's more of a fantasy trope), it was the translatio imperii, that is a linear transmission of imperial power from the Romans to the Franks and then the Saxons (HRE line), but there wasn't just one interpretation. For other others, it was Greece to Rome to the Franks/France, for instance.
You can find a few other examples on the wikipedia page.

That's why there's two decisions in game. One is somewhat historical with the foundation of the HRE, modelled after the Saxon translatio imperii.
The other represents a superior grade where a ruler managed to unite the german, italian and french parts of the Carolingian/Roman empire.

As a side note, claiming to be a direct heir of Charlemagne could help to claim his empire, for sure. However, the real claim was one of power and organization of the empire. When Otto rose to power, he beat the barbarians/pagans (the Magyars), was crowned by the Pope and established the imperial church system. If I had to imagine factual prerequisites for a ruler to claim Charlemagne's heritage, it would probably be those three things (that plus ruling a large territory in western Europe, of course).

 

[Darumaka]

my (admittedly poor) understanding of the situation is that technically the carolingian empire was ongoing at the time. one of the carolingians was nominally considered in charge of the rest of them, theres just not really any good way for ck3 to emulate that at present.

Pretty much. During the 867 start date Louis II of Italy should be the "Emperor," although his power didn't extend outside of the peninsula so having the title of King is probably good enough. The Empire was sort of dead at this point, even if Charles the Fat managed to reunite it shortly.

 

[Rubidium]

The thing to understand is that the traditional Frankish understanding (which the Merovingians and later Carolingians both shared) was that the entire Kingdom of the Franks (the Carolingian empire) was the shared property of all the heirs. Not in the sense of being split into multiple separate kingdoms, but in the sense that it was all one kingdom that happened to have control of different regions temporarily split between different princes. The Merovingians (predecessors of the Carolingians as rulers of the Franks) had regularly seen their territory split that way between the heirs of the king, only to have it be reunited under one son, usually by force. The Carolingians expected the same to happen with Charlemagne's territory, under whichever of them came out on top.

It's why all three of Louis the Pious's surviving sons (Lothair, Louis the German, and Charles the Bald) made constant plays to take over each other's territory, and it continued with their heirs. As noted, Charles the Fat (youngest son of Louis the German) would briefly control all of the old Carolingian empire by virtue of being the last legitimate male Karling left, before he too died without a legitimate son.

So the answer to "who was the legitimate heir of Charlemagne" is "all of them." You could make an argument for Louis the Younger in Italy (he nominally held the senior imperial title, as the eldest son of the eldest son of Louis the Pious), but he had no power outside of Italy, and in practice all of the Carolingians would have considered themselves rightful rulers of the temporarily disunited Carolingian realm.

 

[FishieFan]

There are two Decisions in the game that seem to emulate Charlemagne.
View attachment 977845View attachment 977846
These Decisions appear to be in complete conflict. Judging from the description, one is for the Germans and the other is for the Franks. To be Karl the Great's heir, which one should I choose?

Restore hre is ottonian ambition because it has that elective rule change, restore carolingian borders is more about carolingian and capetian ambition to gain permanent control over as much of Charlemagne’s empire as possible

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I would like to see another decision for the hre. If the HRE absorbs all of Chalemagne's realm, they should be allowed to restore Carolingian borders.

 

[FishieFan]

I would like to see another decision for the hre. If the HRE absorbs all of Chalemagne's realm, they should be allowed to restore Carolingian borders.

You already get dismantle greek pretenders to take off the byz, another isnt needed

 

[Drakken]

You already get dismantle greek pretenders to take off the byz, another isnt needed

Except that it is historically justified with the Carolingians since partition between the descendants and the bloody funeral games that would ensue was a tradition that dated all the way from the Merovingian dynasty. Had the Carolingians failed it would have been the dissolution of the unity of the Frankish Empire into smaller comitati of distant cousins and their hot, scheming wives murdering one another again. Hence why the Robertians, then the Capetians went with an elective monarchy as a stepping stone to primogeniture.

For the Byzantines the need for preserving the legacy of the Roman Empire should prevent any dissolution of the title as a Primary even if it's just reduced to a single province.

One thing I love with the incoming Regency feature is that finally we could have a representation of the usurpation by successive mayors of the palace, through which the Carolingians supplanted the Merovingians.

 

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

I would like to see another decision for the hre. If the HRE absorbs all of Chalemagne's realm, they should be allowed to restore Carolingian borders.

I think so. Threre is a decision called Erbreichsplan in mod Dominus Mundi: Historical Flavor Pack, reflecting HRE's Rule over Italy. I think that can serve as a prerequisite for the Restore of Carolingian's Borders by HRE.

 

[PDXOxycoon]

Now this is a question that has shaped Central European history ever since the empire's fall

 

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

Now this is a question that has shaped Central European history ever since the empire's fall

I hope there will be Restore of Carolingian's Borders with a Germany/HRE version.

 

[Aidanator800]

Now this is a question that has shaped Central European history ever since the empire's fall

Tfw you have a disputed claim to being the successor of an Empire that had a disputed claim to being the successor of another Empire

 

[Zoobar]

Pepin the hunchback

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Whoever has the biggest stick.

 

[Basileus2]

Restore HRE was done by Ottonians (Saxons lol), restoring Carolingian empire was an impossible task Irl only for a fantasy gameplay. closest thing to Carolingian empire is short lived napoleon empire or EU.

Imagine having your empire "revived" by your enemies - brought to you by the 'Roman' gang