Who here has tried playing in the Balkans?

[Sleight of Hand]

So, I thought I'd take a sabbatical from bug reporting and actually try playing the game for a change. Normally I would opt for a Saxon, Breton or Scandinavian, but recently I've been pondering a Balkan character -- which would be well out of my comfort zone, and therefore something of a challenge. Hell, it could even be fun.

I quite like the idea of trying to save the ailing Trpimirović dynasty in Croatia, as historically I believe they were down to their last or three members by 1066. Then there's the Serbs and Bulgarians, two peoples who had their own important empires during the CK II time frame, and both of which I think offer interesting possibilities.

Unfortunately, they all have one thing in common: the Byzantines.

What do you guys think? Normally I prefer 1066 starts, but I'm not adverse to starting later if an interesting character should be nominated.

 

[mike the knight]

I could also suggest you take a look at the LATIN eMPIRE bookmark date .In my opinion King Kaloyan of Epirus is an interesting character or you could take an idea about the situtation if you take a look at my current AAR as a Duke of Dyrrachion

 

[Avicenna]

Yeah, as mike the knight said, 1204 or after would be a good start-date for Southern Europe and the Balkans!

You could also play as a Serb/Bulgarian within the Byzantine realm, amass land and break free? It's funny you should make a topic on this, as that is what my next game is going to be! Not sure whether to go and recreate the Second Bulgarian Empire or the Serbian Empire...

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I like playing as Serbians. During the early game I try to build up my powerbase by using all opportunities to conquer weaker duchies. Fabricated claim to Venice does wonders to your economy and manpower, also Southern Italy offers some interesting possibilities for alliance or expansion. During the earlier patches I usually took Romania from Pehcenegs early, but these days you'll have to be careful that Cumans don't get involved. It's still possible to conquer Wallachia and Moldavia from Pechenegs with the help of mercs and allies, but you'll have to strike when Cumans are fighting major war elsewhere.

Unfortunately if you want to create Kingdom of Serbia it means that you have to conquer Byzantine territory and you should never attack against the Byzantines before you're strong enough and there's a civil war or Seljuk/Fatimid invasion which has crippled the Empire. If Byzantines are too strong you can always ask to join the Empire.

1066 is interesting start date for Serbians, because your duke is Catholic but his heir is Orthodox.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Personally I think 1300+ is the best start for the Balkans, since there's plenty of small players in Greece too (and Anatolia), so it's basically like tutorial island Ireland in the 1066 start... except things can get pretty dangerous quickly with different cultures and religions mixing around. I consider sort of like a second-level tutorial region alongside 1300+ Italy after Ireland.

 

[unmerged(581121)]

If you start around the mid 13th century, the Balkans and especially Greece get overrun by little Latin factions post Fourth Crusade. The Villehardouins in Greece would be cool, or one of the little kingdoms around there.

 

[Nyrael]

I often play with Croatia andh ere are few of my advices:

While Byzantines tend to be a problem, they tend to be busy with Muslims so they won't always be able to afford bothering with you.
It is advised to focus on conquering de-jure Serbian provinces and adding Serbian crown to yours. It will give you nice prestige boosts and lands that won't be too hard to keep, but keep in mind that it will earn you eternal hatred with the Byzantines (due to them wanting to have both Croatian and Serbian crown under them)... on bright side, tsealing the Bulgarian crown for them is no longer such a bad idea as they already hate you as much as they can
To stay on safe side, focus the education of your Kings on Intrigue. Murdering the Emperor during the war will either kick Byzantium out (if they joined someone's war or supported your vassal's plot) or make them a delicious target of their other enemies.
If you decide to take the Serbian crown, assassinate the Emperor (with either method) every time the Byzantine Empire looks stable. They are too much of a threat to be left alone.

Hungary could be a bigger problem, especially before the Mongols arrive. However, they often have succession crises and it is advised to use it in your favor by attacking any neighboring vassals that rebel against their King. If you are quick and careful enough, you will have strong enough realm to not be seen as fodder by the Byzantines and Hungarians.

HRE is your best friend: they don't seem to be too aggressive and they can be turned into a powerful ally. However, to keep them at your good side, it is advised to keep yourself out of Italian mainland (which they like conquering) and stay away from their de-jure lands. However, if they are unstable, than it could be more affordable to chip them out like Hungary. I succeeded in using both strategies the last time I played: I managed to steal some of their lands while still staying at their good side.

Venice is a beautiful cake you may want to take over. After the Republic DLC is released, I am sure they will be even more beautiful.

Mongols are like HRE: another beautiful friend for you. They will trash Hungary and Poland but be too far to care about you. However, you are close to Hungary and Poland and you can use the situation well to expand. Use marriages to conquer full Kingdoms if necessary.

And Crusades... it is worth focusing on them. Yes, those Muslims can be scary, but your position allows you to focus on any Crusading Area you want (or you may focus on all if you are ambitious), from Jerusalem to Spain. Nothing is far from you and thus it can be easy to keep them under control.

 

[tuareg109]

June 1, 1205 for Latin Empire

Norman Invasion start date for Count of Dorostotum. The only (as far as I know) Bulgarian landholder in the vanilla start.
Educate your children and your [Greek] nephews to be Bulgarians, and take over the Balkans to be the KHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN.

 

[Arokel]

Tried Latin Empire once.

Got my face smashed in by Rum.

 

[tuareg109]

Tried Latin Empire once.

Got my face smashed in by Rum.

Did you consolidate your Greek holdings, and take the Balkans first?
Typically that helps; the provinces are high in income and offer decent manpower. Once you convert them (for some reason the Aegean and Peloponnese convert super-fast), they will be great provinces to hold either in demesne of in enfeoffment.

 

[Dreamshifter]

I've run in that area a few times, it can be fun.

Croatia pre-LoR was interesting. Haven't tried it post LoR, but from what I've seen, Byz loves to take them out. Assuming Byz survives the initial invasions, that is.

I did run one of the Greeks in Bulgaria recently. That one was a lot of fun, even after the Fatmids ate Byz. Their invasion destroyed the title, leaving me as an independent, and surrounded by mostly enemies. Took forever, but I ended up restoring the empire several hundred years later. Too bad the title destruction isn't guaranteed, or predictable.

As for non-1066 starts, I can't help with those. I don't start at any other time...

 

[Arokel]

Did you consolidate your Greek holdings, and take the Balkans first?
Typically that helps; the provinces are high in income and offer decent manpower. Once you convert them (for some reason the Aegean and Peloponnese convert super-fast), they will be great provinces to hold either in demesne of in enfeoffment.

Rum went insane that came. Took them only 15 years to conquer Greece and Anatolia.

 

[Arokel]

Tried Latin Empire once.

Got my face smashed in by Rum.

Disregard this.

Didn't actually happen. Not thinking right tonight.

 

[Tomasu]

^^ Greetings everyone. I believe that I very recently have started a game as the King of Serbia (House Nemanjic) in the 1187 scenario using the CK2+ mod. I believe that I initially found this very difficult as I was surrounded by four relatively large independent realms - Hungary to the North(the King of Hungary was also the King of Croatia), Bulgaria to the East, the Byzantine Empire to the South and also Sicily to the west across the sea.

I started with four provinces - I quickly lost Rashka to the Bulgarians and Ragusa to the Hungarians. However, using some marriages with my enlarged family, I allied with Sicily, the Byzantine Empire and Castille (who were quite large in Iberia). Using these alliances, I have reconquered these two lost provinces (Siciliy helped me to reclaim Ragusa whilst Hungary was within civil war). I was also very lucky as a number of Dukes declared independence in Hungary, allowing me to claim Belgrade by de Jure, which was owned by the Duke of Temes. Therefore, I have now reunited de Jure Serbia.

I believe that my current King is also heir to the Duchy of Thessalonika, however I am very worried that the Byzantine Empire shall wish to attack me when I inherit this. (I believe this is very interesting as the current Byzantine Emperor within my game is Armenian and is named "Emperor" and not "Basileus"). I think that I may now remain at peace for a little time and improve relations with my allies.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

I played in Balkans or expanding there My first game in this region (paused now for some time) was started as a count (2 provinces) in Duchy of Turnovo. My liege was Duke from Doukas family but after Pechings were defeated (and captured mostly by me) I've just faced and gain "independence" from Duke. This allowed me to expand fast and create Duchy titles and then Bulgaria (under Emperor off course) and move towards Serbia. After this it is easier now - if Byzantine elect Medium Crown Law easiest way to keep expanding is to attack Croatia...

My second game - actually running is as a count in Nikea (2 provinces, like Prusa) so borders of Kingdom of Byzantium. I've expanded into Wallachia (2 provinces in Moldau) and captured Taurica (first was Oleshye from Pechings, then have taken some lands from Cumans as they missed stability. I was just faster than emperor army, only thanks to him I've menaged to epxand agaisnt Cumans fast ). Meanwhile I've made 2 impoortant marriages which later gave me... 2 counts in Duchy of Turnovo (as myself after my wife died I've married one countess there, her sister rulled in second county was married to... my son After those marriages I was fabricating claims in Bulgaria so after Taurica I've made Bulgaria. Then the same scheme - Serbia and Croatia (which was slowly eaten by Byzantines due to their often realm duress - everytime someone revolted against king of Croatia, then Byzantine Emperor / Empress immidiately appeared. I've never seen them attacking Croatia or Sicily if those both were stable. This also include Cumans, which lost borders badly due to civil wars)...

What my conclusion then:

Bulgaria and Serbia are small kingdoms and both under Emperor in 1066. Creating kindgom there is giving strong boost cause we may easily increase our land as a liege of Dukes. They are also great base of our army. But to be honest that's better to play somewhere alse and just expand there (or start there but gain at least one more advanced province). While playing within Nikea I've had capital in rich Prusa with level 2 technology (especially legalism). Even when I had Taurica, and other (Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Wallachia, Alania) I still got capital in Duchy of Nikea (for now it is Nikomedia) as it is more advanced. At the beginning it is helpfull. Also if You concetrate on stewardship You may easily keep most lands for Yourself (This may be also helpfull in Croatia - as I wrote I've never seen Byzantines attacking Croatia or Sicily while they are stable). There is also race for Wallachia so it is recommended to keep an eye on it...

 

[kermitfrg]

I strongly encourage you to try the Latin Empire bookmark date, or another area that is interesting is to play as the Duke of Cherson in 1066 and form the Kingdom of Tauricia, then breakaway from the Byzantines. Having your own litte greek kingdom in the northern Black Sea.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Bulgaria and Serbia are small kingdoms and both under Emperor in 1066.

Wrong. While Bulgaria is under the Empire, Duke Mihailo I of Duklja is independent at the start of the game and while Byzantines control small part of de jure territory of Serbia, Duke of Duklja can create Kingdom of Serbia as soon as he gets another duchy (but IIRC in earliest patches you needed to take some land from Byzantines to create Serbia).

 

[unmerged(462833)]

Wrong. While Bulgaria is under the Empire, Duke Mihailo I of Duklja is independent at the start of the game and while Byzantines control small part of de jure territory of Serbia, Duke of Duklja can create Kingdom of Serbia as soon as he gets another duchy (but IIRC in earliest patches you needed to take some land from Byzantines to create Serbia).

Right, my mistake. 3 provinces are independent. But other 2 are under Byzantine. In my game they used Ducal claims on it really quickly (bringing 3rd province of Serbia to Byzantium - if I remember well it was Rashka) that I really forgot about it...

 

[Heartsbane]

I played a goo game as Duklija and formed Serbia by taking Croat lands and the occasional revolting Byzantine Counties. You can stay independent though you may have to send a couple bribes the Byz way but I wouldn't recommend swear fealty to them. They tend to get revoke happy when you aren't greek.

 

[unmerged(217556)]

I have played several long successful games starting as croatia in 1066, both in ck1 and ck2.
It's important to expand where you can as soon as possible. Get whatever allies you can and save up for mercenaries and as soon as you have some adequate forces start expanding. You should be hitting the pechenegs for their lands, if you gotta declare war on them twice in a row, it's worth the small prestige hit for violating the truce, you really need the lands ASAP. Sicily is also a good point of expansion, and you should try to fabricate claims on venice. Pick up the small independent serbian states whenever you can, and from then on it's a game of picking away at the HRE in italy, the byzantines in greece, and the hungarians to gain whatever lands you can. It might be a good idea to expand into north africa as well, picking up tunis and tripolitania can be very beneficial. Another potential route altogether is to swear fealty to byzantium and then try to expand within their lands with their protection and try to become emperor yourself. One of the reasons I don't like playing as balkan countries in ck2 more recently is that they don't have one of those de jure empires that they've added in that region at all, so I feel like I'd have to take control of byzantium eventually anyways, and if I was going to do that I'd rather play as a greek or georgian family.