Who else finds colonisation in North America too difficult/annoying?

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colinljx

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it’s kind of disappointing to know that you will get a similar ahistorical outcome in China 100% of the time unless you take a specific action
I don't feel disappointed with any outcome anymore because, time and time again, Paradox refused to make all blobs implode equally like Ming (I have been disappointed more than enough times with their previous ways in all their games to appease the players around this forum who want Ming/China/any non-European power to be a pushover when touched by human player). You don't get to tell others how their game should be, in the same way that I can't tell anyone to play the game my way.
 
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I think you missed the point I’m not asking for a historical simulation but game design that makes historical outcomes more not less possible. The more ahistorical outcomes the less immersive the game is for roleplayers.
And my point is that you might as well be asking for historical outcomes in ultimate chicken horse or street fighter, because EU 4's core mechanics make "historical" outcomes impossible. I extend this argument to earlier allegedly "historical" games of EU too, because while they shoehorned in events their models did not match them causally.

This game's design is closer to real-time Civ than most people would like to admit. It's one thing not to like that, but it's another to argue the game should be arbitrarily worse with one particular mechanic in the name of "historical immersion" that isn't even consistent for the poster making said argument.

The ironic thing is that all of this aside, 1.31 colonization is more accurate than 1.30 colonization in America. US fought many wars against Indians after the game's time period ended, and kept fighting some of those conflicts after its civil war. Despite what people drew on a map, nobody had actually sent enough settlers in numbers or won the wars yet. Even colonizers allying natives is more historical than eliminating them pre-1700. Look up a list of 1700's wars between Europeans and note some of the belligerents on either side. Might see something interesting.

Or to put a different way imagine playing HOI and having Germany defeat Russia every time if you weren’t directly intervening.

This actually happened for a long time, though HOI 4 can't manage to avoid lying to you or to present functional basic inputs/controls. Hard to have an immersive experience when your units literally attack away from your front line against orders.

HOI 4 is a bad comp for design reasons too though. US production and resources are massively nerfed, and the axis is super-buffed relative to actual history. If one derives "immersion" from historical accuracy, the described boring outcome (one outcome every time) would indeed be the norm, and in many iterations Germany would lose before taking France, because France is also massively nerfed in HOI relative to actual history. HOI is literally a case where reality is intentionally cast aside, even with regards to starting date setup, to make the game more fun to play.

Or if you’re playing any Indian country when the Europeans never really come and are a pushover because the game is poorly balanced now it ruins the immersion.

Another ironic example. I've seen posters prefer the old example where Indians were way behind in tech and claim that such a setup was more "historical". That despite the fact that Mysore won pitched battles against Great Britain after 1750, which was impossible back in the days of "protectorates". It's not coherent to make historical outcomes (battle results) impossible and then claim other outcomes (final borders) are "historical" as a result of event sequences that never happened.

The claim "poorly balanced" is therefore questionable. It is more balanced now than previously. Part of the disconnect is that historically, after losing or stalling out wars several times Great Britain "outplayed" Indian nations. You can't manifest that in a historically accurate way by arbitrarily changing actual nation/military strength. But there's only one type of AI in EU 4. Notably player conquest of India or new world is easier/faster than was accomplished historically, so there is a valid case that the balance is already unduly in favor of Europeans.

To me that doesn't feel like colonisation. I like the element of luck and integration that colonisation does by waiting for the 1,000 people to arrive and getting random trade goods rather than waiting for some natives to permanently making a trade good stay.
I can buy that some people might prefer loot-box nature of drop colony and wait for RNG, but let's not mistake that for a historical representation :p.

Colonizers actually having to fight natives for the land? Seems historical to me!
Particular irony being that despite European claims to the US regions, actual colony presence relative to Indians was tiny for most of this period. If Pdox wanted to be "historically accurate" while somehow using outcomes as the framework, USA would virtually never be even 50% colonized in this period. In real history, Indian federations fought alongside Europeans during times where "historical accuracy" players want them long dead in the name of history X_X.
 
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I am currently doing an Irish colonial game and am enjoying the greater native presence, diversity and staying power. I am not playing with Leviathan so there are no crazy pillage develolpment stuff going on. IMO, Ideally, at least some nations should usually survive to game end date for a more historical outcome.

One thing I noticed is that some migratory tribes had disconnected provinces all over the place, and once settled resulted in a fractured tribe.

I got quite conquest happy versus the new tags with my Canadian and eastern US colonial nations. I wound up giving all provinces to one or the other. In fact, one of my nations triggered a coalition due to this. I could only watch helplessly as the dumb AI lost the seige race (if it had targeted the native armies or split its stack to unseige it could have won). I was fighting England at when they reached a peace so I missed the details. Much of the native territory was returned, and my CN has no cores (either they never cored my gifts or they lost them in the peace deal)

I have only been playing eu4 for about a year and a half and only have 900 hours so this is a new scenario for me. Only currently have one active CB via my CNs, and im in a truce with that tribe right now. Don't know what the best option is right now...wait for imperiallism? Hope my CNs fab more claims? No CB war?
 

holyvigil

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I agree that it is harder for a passive chill game. It's also true that it is quick to colonize for a true one tag but slower for a simple WC.

I just think it's less historical. NA should be alot more empty when the colonizers start colonizing. Less major wars more just colonies rolling over territories.
 
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The Norman Yoke

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Natives "owned" the entire continent before the Spanish and Portuguese got there...

Colonizers actually having to fight natives for the land? Seems historical to me!
Westphalian states didn't own the whole continent before the Spanish and Portuguese got there
 
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I just think it's less historical. NA should be alot more empty when the colonizers start colonizing. Less major wars more just colonies rolling over territories.
What basis do you use to claim that such would be more historical? Nations laid claims to territory west of the 13 colonies, but those were not actually in European hands in this period.
 
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holyvigil

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What basis do you use to claim that such would be more historical? Nations laid claims to territory west of the 13 colonies, but those were not actually in European hands in this period.

Because there have been no major wars between America and a Native American Nation. The colonial nations alone could handle the skirmishes not requiring the mother nations help at the stage in which EU4 transfers them to a colonial nation.
 
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Westphalian states didn't own the whole continent before the Spanish and Portuguese got there
What difference does it really make? Sure, the concept of a unified tribe controlling swaths of land is not right, but same could be said for many other tags in the game. The actual effect is still the same as history; Europeans need to fight natives for the land, instead of turning on the -100% uprising policy and colonizing everywhere with no resistance.
 
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More Americans died to Indian attacks than several of its official wars combined, after 1821.

That kind of implies they were still there, not "rolled over" 150 years earlier.

Kind of but in reality is closer to a not so smooth occupation and some rebellion.
 

The Norman Yoke

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What difference does it really make? Sure, the concept of a unified tribe controlling swaths of land is not right, but same could be said for many other tags in the game. The actual effect is still the same as history; Europeans need to fight natives for the land, instead of turning on the -100% uprising policy and colonizing everywhere with no resistance.
Who uses that policy when +20 settlers, or the +50 assimilation is so much better
History was minor militia with native allies attacking other natives, it wasn't sending in 50k of the Queen's tercios to found Jamestown
 
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Who uses that policy when +20 settlers, or the +50 assimilation is so much better
History was minor militia with native allies attacking other natives, it wasn't sending in 50k of the Queen's tercios to found Jamestown
You see the problem though, right? This is a game where it’s (completely ahistorically) pretty easy to send in those 50k. Balancing natives based on “they’ll just be fighting a few colonial militia; that’s how it was in history” doesn’t make sense.
 
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Kind of but in reality is closer to a not so smooth occupation and some rebellion.
It was asymmetric warfare, but the losses speak for themselves (on both sides).

To call something "occupation", you have to first put soldiers there. That happened gradually in the timeframe of 100s of years, during which it would be a misrepresentation to say US settlers were inhabiting all of it or even close. Since we're talking about different tribes, it's more reasonable to represent these as wars rather than as some kind of 150+ year unrest/rebellion situation.

All that aside, the fact that these conflicts continued well after US civil war makes the assertions that natives should be run over pre-1700 in the name of "history" an absurd position. Can't attain a "historical outcome" by advocating an outcome that is objectively far from reality.
 

The Norman Yoke

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You see the problem though, right? This is a game where it’s (completely ahistorically) pretty easy to send in those 50k. Balancing natives based on “they’ll just be fighting a few colonial militia; that’s how it was in history” doesn’t make sense.
Sending that 50k got harder in recent patches with all the attrition, although getting them to resupply with global manpower is ezpz. Sending 50k at once is unlikely with how many transports the AI would build with just their capital region
 

holyvigil

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It was asymmetric warfare, but the losses speak for themselves (on both sides).

To call something "occupation", you have to first put soldiers there. That happened gradually in the timeframe of 100s of years, during which it would be a misrepresentation to say US settlers were inhabiting all of it or even close. Since we're talking about different tribes, it's more reasonable to represent these as wars rather than as some kind of 150+ year unrest/rebellion situation.

All that aside, the fact that these conflicts continued well after US civil war makes the assertions that natives should be run over pre-1700 in the name of "history" an absurd position. Can't attain a "historical outcome" by advocating an outcome that is objectively far from reality.

that is a good point. There was often not soldiers and it was settlors fighting against native americans.

I do not know why different tribes means it should be represented by wars.

They were run over and that is closer to history. What would be better than wars or colonization would be minority mechanics. That would be the best way to represent what happened to the natives.
 
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I do not know why different tribes means it should be represented by wars.
Because sometimes the US military did engage with tribes, and put down the resistance...from that tribe. Since tribes weren't a monolithic block of gradual organized resistance, it makes more sense to cover this with a war.

They were run over and that is closer to history.
US tribes getting "run over" was not a thing that happened for the vast majority of the continent before 1821. Saying it's closer to history again doesn't change that. Colonial presence west of the Mississippi was very limited, even in 1821. England brought tribes into military conflict against USA more than once.

This is not reasonably modeled by sending a colonist and sitting there.
 
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The Norman Yoke

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US tribes getting "run over" was not a thing that happened for the vast majority of the continent before 1821. Saying it's closer to history again doesn't change that. Colonial presence west of the Mississippi was very limited, even in 1821. England brought tribes into military conflict against USA more than once.

This is not reasonably modeled by sending a colonist and sitting there.
Colonist being sent increases number of colonists, and being taken away has a chance to cause a colonial uprising of the natives who then need to be put down, with the natives of a province being able to sometimes gives a more accurate number than the native tags give
 
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And don't forget the tremendous lagspikes tribal nations have with semi-conquered lands, high development and defeating the purpose of colonists.
 
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And don't forget the tremendous lagspikes tribal nations have with semi-conquered lands, high development and defeating the purpose of colonists.
This wasn't forgotten, though arguments against these thing have been refuted earlier in this thread.

Other than lagspikes, which is a performance issue.
 

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I think everyone agrees here, the problem is that we have 2 mechanics (passive colonisation and normal warfare) being used to get the same outcome.

Europeans can conquer the tribes by warfare yes, but then why does the colonisation mechanic also exist?
If you specialise in colonisation you get bonus for passive occupation but those become useless vs another tag territory.

In history of course both models existed, europeans weren't always killing everything in sight, many times local tribes were integrated peacefully, the thing is that there are so many tags now (that increase in size) that it's awkward to go for a passive colonisation game and end up full of tribal exclaves.

Maybe there could be a new colonisation policy/idea that makes small tribal nations that border colonies a special vassal if we have good relation?