Who else finds colonisation in North America too difficult/annoying?

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Nevars

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The only thing that annoyed me is that conquered lands don't have my culture and CN doesn't practice cultural genocide, I means culture convert lol

But it's so minor and not game play problem so I just ignore it.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Why do you keep on obfusciating?
Obfuscating and holding one to consistent standards are different things.
Qing has plenty of buffs, like manchuria having more dev than Korea, unguarded frontier if criss of ming doesn't fire.
Yet historical Qing never happens, which leaves it even less frequent than any historical outcome in the new world, and it's one example among many.
People don't want iroqouis dying, they just want reliable colonial nations and pockets of uncolonized provinces left to make the idea group worth it
Reliable colonial nations implies native nations dying. Exploration is more valuable in 1.31 than it was in 1.30, for reasons already covered in this thread.

What the player can do is not congruent with how the AI should be balanced.

"Historical outcomes" are an even worse model for how the AI should be balanced than what the player can do. The game was created for the player at least, and per above the "historical outcome" preference is self-inconsistent.

It's not reasonable to make a case that historical things should tend to happen but also that historical things shouldn't tend to happen, at the same time. If you want to see "reliable" colonial nations, but not "reliable" Mughals or "reliable" French conquest of HRE, you are doing exactly that.
 
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correctamundo

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Quite the opposite really. Free real estate that will feed my european armies!
 

Heiliges Thüringens Reich

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My colonies barely lifted a finger against the natives... they just send colonists to empty provinces and chill.
The colonies from my PU, on the other hand, always fought against natives (and generally lost, lol).
 

TeutonicTortoise

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European colonial nations still dominate the regions just not have complete ownership which is kinda more realistic then is given credit for. Previously you get a 10 prov CN by natives and boom they're dead now you get atleast a native + CN experience and can have a America v natives in the early 19th century like it happened
 
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Dainty Owl

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Obfuscating and holding one to consistent standards are different things.

Yet historical Qing never happens, which leaves it even less frequent than any historical outcome in the new world, and it's one example among many.

Reliable colonial nations implies native nations dying. Exploration is more valuable in 1.31 than it was in 1.30, for reasons already covered in this thread.



"Historical outcomes" are an even worse model for how the AI should be balanced than what the player can do. The game was created for the player at least, and per above the "historical outcome" preference is self-inconsistent.

It's not reasonable to make a case that historical things should tend to happen but also that historical things shouldn't tend to happen, at the same time. If you want to see "reliable" colonial nations, but not "reliable" Mughals or "reliable" French conquest of HRE, you are doing exactly that.

These comparisons are a bit off. Even if the Manchurians hadn't invaded China, the timeline would largely be the same. The European powers would have still bullied China, merely facing a different dynasty. On the other hand, if the Americas hadn't been colonized and hadn't had their raw resouces pooled by the european powers, the outcome changes drastically. One triggers a chain of events that define modern day history, the other arguably does not.

Assuming one desires at least some degree of accuracy, it's importaint to note that not all events are equal in significance. What Europe looks like (i.e. is France protestant, is Scotland in charge of Englands, etc), and what Asia looks like (have the mughals formed, has Quing formed, etc) are less important than whether Europe is invading Asia or vice-versa.
France being protestant is historically inaccurate, but the natives not being conquered is very, very historically inaccurate.

Personally, I'm fine with France being Protestant at a noticeable rate ( 1-2 times out of ten), but I want to see the natives not conquered as often as I see the purple phoenix rise again - once in a full moon.

That being said though, I'm not opposed to the game trying to make the Manchu invasion more consistent. It should happen, like 6-7 out of 10 times imo.


As for the natives situation, I think the devs should crank both the agressiveness of CNs and their overlords. That would result in much of the continent being more or less fully taken, by 1700, and then the Europeans can fight one another for colonial possessions.
Right now it's annoying seeing CNs just sitting there, especially if you're a colonizer. Because there is no race - I can conquer vast areas of North America as the Dutch, even if I arrive a 100 years late, because the English will be sitting there, staring blankly into the wall.
In fact, for me in this case, it's more about enjoying a challenge than historical accuracy.
 
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The Norman Yoke

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My colonies barely lifted a finger against the natives... they just send colonists to empty provinces and chill.
The colonies from my PU, on the other hand, always fought against natives (and generally lost, lol).
Were those colonies non Catholic? As a couple of patches ago, a thread showed that Catholic AI will let natives be to prevent breaking ToT
These comparisons are a bit off. Even if the Manchurians hadn't invaded China, the timeline would largely be the same. The European powers would have still bullied China, merely facing a different dynasty. On the other hand, if the Americas hadn't been colonized and hadn't had their raw resouces pooled by the european powers, the outcome changes drastically. One triggers a chain of events that define modern day history, the other arguably does not.

Assuming one desires at least some degree of accuracy, it's importaint to note that not all events are equal in significance. What Europe looks like (i.e. is France protestant, is Scotland in charge of Englands, etc), and what Asia looks like (have the mughals formed, has Quing formed, etc) are less important than whether Europe is invading Asia or vice-versa.
France being protestant is historically inaccurate, but the natives not being conquered is very, very historically inaccurate.

Personally, I'm fine with France being Protestant at a noticeable rate ( 1-2 times out of ten), but I want to see the natives not conquered as often as I see the purple phoenix rise again - once in a full moon.

That being said though, I'm not opposed to the game trying to make the Manchu invasion more consistent. It should happen, like 6-7 out of 10 times imo.


As for the natives situation, I think the devs should crank both the agressiveness of CNs and their overlords. That would result in much of the continent being more or less fully taken, by 1700, and then the Europeans can fight one another for colonial possessions.
Right now it's annoying seeing CNs just sitting there, especially if you're a colonizer. Because there is no race - I can conquer vast areas of North America as the Dutch, even if I arrive a 100 years late, because the English will be sitting there, staring blankly into the wall.
In fact, for me in this case, it's more about enjoying a challenge than historical accuracy.
Yes having wars between colonial powers over the colonies would be fun, but with the 1444 start, as a coloniser you'll normally expand into another coloniser, so need to hold yourself back a bit
Also with France going protestant, whilst not what happened in our timeline, had the counter reformation not been as effective, and Spain not able to intervene as much, a Protestant who tolerates Catholics wouldn't be too impossible imo.
Obfuscating and holding one to consistent standards are different things.

Yet historical Qing never happens, which leaves it even less frequent than any historical outcome in the new world, and it's one example among many.
Because modelling Qing is very hard, and paradox can't code Chinese AI to be aggressive enough to reunify the continent at all costs, even if high devastation will wreck mandate
.

Reliable colonial nations implies native nations dying. Exploration is more valuable in 1.31 than it was in 1.30, for reasons already covered in this thread.
Why are you so averse to native nations dying?
Why is exploration worth it? Just pick another idea group, and use steal maps or ask for maps to find the way to cathay
"Historical outcomes" are an even worse model for how the AI should be balanced than what the player can do. The game was created for the player at least, and per above the "historical outcome" preference is self-inconsistent.

It's not reasonable to make a case that historical things should tend to happen but also that historical things shouldn't tend to happen, at the same time. If you want to see "reliable" colonial nations, but not "reliable" Mughals or "reliable" French conquest of HRE, you are doing exactly that.
Historical games should have mechanics grounded in reality as these mechanics will then represent what happened in reality.
Reliable mughals perhaps not, but some great conquest of India would be nice. If we could get Timurids reliably break up and Uzbek reliably invade khorsan I'd defiently like that. Reliable rambunctioness France with only a couple of allies, who are majors, pushing into the HRE would be nice, letting the player join coalitions, and keep an Austrian player busy. I'd love it if the 1st war with England was able to get both the south and the north, but Brittany reliably going into PU with France is not something to see.

As said above, the conquest of the americas is so monumental to the change of the world order, we need it to happen to get a reliable game
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Because modelling Qing is very hard, and paradox can't code Chinese AI to be aggressive enough to reunify the continent at all costs, even if high devastation will wreck mandate
Modeling anything is hard. For the quoted argument to work, you must demonstrate why NA is special compared to other regions of the world, which has not happened.
Why are you so averse to native nations dying?
I'm not averse to anybody dying in EU 4. I'm averse to claims that particular nations should die "reliably" and not others because "reasons" (aka arbitrary reasoning, at least as presented so far).
Historical games should have mechanics grounded in reality as these mechanics will then represent what happened in reality.
At the level of abstraction chosen for EU 4, this is impossible. You can't have historical outcomes with blatantly ahistorical core mechanics, and you can't abstract a game of this scope without making ahistorical core mechanics. You can give a nod to history with the mechanics, but it's not possible to actually make a model resembling history without making the game more granular across the board.

That's fine and all, but it's no longer the scope of "NA natives". It's the scope of "I want EU 5 to have more granular mechanics to model history". And it still won't be possible, yet. Computers aren't that good.
Reliable mughals perhaps not, but some great conquest of India would be nice.
Perhaps some great conquest of Europe would be nice, and I've yet to see a reason why one region should be favored for "reliable" conquest over the others. Especially when someone is advocating in favor of conquest that didn't happen in the period over conquest that did.
If we could get Timurids reliably break up and Uzbek reliably invade khorsan I'd defiently like that. Reliable rambunctioness France with only a couple of allies, who are majors, pushing into the HRE would be nice, letting the player join coalitions, and keep an Austrian player busy.
For example, quoted demonstrates the inconsistency clearly. Mass conquest of most of Europe and mass conquest of Iran are both things that happened in this period. Both were of monumental importance to history with wide-ranging consequences reaching decades to centuries past when they occurred, in ways nobody can predict.

But I don't see advocation of "reliable" dismantling of the HRE, for some reason. Despite that in our only empirical sample (actual history), this happened just as frequently as (a fraction) of Indians being conquered in NA or India being conquered by Mughals.
As said above, the conquest of the americas is so monumental to the change of the world order, we need it to happen to get a reliable game
As said above, that doesn't distinguish conquest of NA from any other region in the history of this period.
These comparisons are a bit off. Even if the Manchurians hadn't invaded China, the timeline would largely be the same.
Pffffft hahahahaha.

In case you were serious, you don't know what the timeline looks like without this massive event happening any better than the best historians alive know what it would look like (and they have no idea). Too many snowballing factors.
Assuming one desires at least some degree of accuracy, it's importaint to note that not all events are equal in significance.
It's easy to argue what was or wasn't significant in hindsight. It's also irrelevant, since we want the events in the game to match their causal factors.
France being protestant is historically inaccurate, but the natives not being conquered is very, very historically inaccurate.
That's quite the claim to make without any evidence to back it. Even bigger claim in the context of EU 4's model.
As for the natives situation, I think the devs should crank both the agressiveness of CNs and their overlords. That would result in much of the continent being more or less fully taken, by 1700
Aggressiveness would be good, because that's a better course of action for the AI's position.

That said, I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of quoted, considering that "NA more or less fully taken by 1700" is complete fantasy land. Quoted embodies the "I want the game to be historical but I also arbitrarily don't want the game to be historical" to a comical degree.

To illustrate just how ridiculous this "historical" outcome would be, I'll point out that the US had wars vs Indians after the US Civil war. In aggregate, these wars vs Indians...most after the game's end date...resulted in casualties in the 10,000s for both sides. Tiny compared to US civil war or the world wars, but even some of the individual conflicts approached the casualties/damage of war of 1812, Mexican/American war, Spanish/American war, or Philippine/American war.

But sure. Let's "historically" represent the region by having nations mostly off the map despite that in actual history some were still engaging in armed conflict 200 years later, and call this a "historical outcome" :D. Do go on and show us how Spain/Portugal fought historical wars of conquest well into the interior of what is now part of the US before 1700.

This is one of the reasons why I request that whatever standards we apply for "shouldness" to EU 4, we apply them consistently. Suggestions for NA Indians compared to other regions of EU 4 tend to completely ignore their own standards while arbitrarily making gameplay worse.

The fact of the matter is that 1.31 is actually closer to history in the 1444-1821 period than 1.30 was in terms of outcome/% of land controlled by Europeans vs Indians, yet here we are.
 
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Less2

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I just want CNs that can manage their own shit and not need babysitting.
 
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The Norman Yoke

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Modeling anything is hard. For the quoted argument to work, you must demonstrate why NA is special compared to other regions of the world, which has not happened.
Because we just got a dlc focused partly on north america/update for conquest of paradise. Plague mechanics can also add to when the polynesians spread their wings and join the global game of conquering their neighbours
That's fine and all, but it's no longer the scope of "NA natives". It's the scope of "I want EU 5 to have more granular mechanics to model history". And it still won't be possible, yet. Computers aren't that good.
Improvements to any is the beginning of the improvement of all, because all mechanics will ultimately interact as all global things did
Perhaps some great conquest of Europe would be nice, and I've yet to see a reason why one region should be favored for "reliable" conquest over the others. Especially when someone is advocating in favor of conquest that didn't happen in the period over conquest that did.
You do get a great conquest of europe with napoeloen, but the wealth of tags in europe, and their easier access to colonies helping them keep going, means that coalitions are larger in size, and stronger. You also have the legacy of the region meaning that there has been no hegemon for many centuries, and everyone will try to prevent the rise of one. Whereas the dehli dynasty before the Sayyids had been able to conquer a pretty penny of India, sher shah suri would swoop in and take all the mughal conquests of india to that point etc etc.

I'll respond to the rest later
 
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Improvements to any is the beginning of the improvement of all
Breaking internal consistency makes the game worse, not better. Breaking internal consistency of argumentation makes said argument incoherent.
You do get a great conquest of europe with napoeloen
Not in EU 4 you don't. Far less likely than more conquest in NA than was historically achieved by 1821.
coalitions are larger in size, and stronger.
Coalitions as they are represented in EU 4 are a fantasy mechanic that makes even the most improbable AI outcomes in EU 4 look downright plausible. A complete bastardization of any historical coalition ever, to the extent that it makes historical coalition wars not only improbable, but completely impossible. It's a game mechanic through and through, and it irks me that the same people who claim "historical accuracy" as an important source of "immersion" often turn around and say that the coalition mechanic is a "necessary abstraction".

Per above, EU 4 abstracts by necessity. You do not "improve" the game by applying one standard/rationale in one place and then ignoring that standard at convenience. That's how you get broken outcomes which don't make sense, in either historical or gameplay terms.

Coalition wars, even before their bugs in 1.31, are so mechanically decoupled from history that a giant mono-tag sitting on US soil waiting for Europeans in 1490 is perfectly reasonable historical representation by comparison. Because like that outcome, coalition wars as represented in the game were outright impossible historically. And that's just one example. Why do I bring it up? Because it is one of several factors in why we don't see a conquest of the majority of continental Europe in short timeframes. In contrast to Indians, which are easier to conquer than they were in history, coalitions are much, much, much sturdier in EU 4 than reality ever managed or could manage.
 
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For example, since federations form and natives can "colonise", they can collectively own half the continent before the Spanish or Portuguese get there. It is annoying that the Iroquois own random provinces in the middle of the great plains while Cherokee controls all of the south with tribal or colonised lands as they federalise. Because of this, colonisers are lucky to get a few provinces colonised and the only way to expand is to battle tribal nations. I've been used to the old 1.30 mechanics where there was no tribal land and federations were less revamped.

Sorry if I'm complaining too much. It seems like North America is usually always controlled by non-Europeans in 1500 while Brazil is just free territory for colonisers.

I find colonization even faster now. The natives are doing your work for you.
 
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Regarding Qing and North American natives, you guys can both be right at the same time. Qing in game happens almost 0 percent of the time and by 1600 there are only a handful of colonizable provinces in North America about 100% of the time. Both of these things are bad along with a lot of other issues that never seem to get better because when features are designed they are rarely balanced toward making a historical outcome more likely even if it happens 0% of the time in game without human intervention. Look at the monuments effects for examples of this. Look at the lack of tech disparity in the game so bad that when you convert to a Vic 2 game every nation is civilized and yet the features are still designed that make this even worse with every other expansion. When was the last time you saw a British or European India by game end or Qing as the other poster mentioned. Without direct player intervention it’s basically never.
 
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Both of these things are bad

Are they though? Why are they bad, in particular, in the confines of EU 4's abstraction?

balanced toward making a historical outcome
Within the constraints of EU 4 (economic model, decision-maker at nation level above ruler, monarch points, national ideas, war mechanics, peace deals, truces, etc) a historical outcome is impossible.

I'm not saying it's merely hard. I'm saying it can't be done and still have a game that resembles EU 4, at all.

Without direct player intervention it’s basically never.

The problem (insofar as it is one) is that this is by design. The devs knew that 100% peace deal limit would make numerous historical war outcomes impossible in EU 4. They knew that it doesn't make sense for a landlocked nation to unlock "national ideas" that are all naval-based. They knew that Ireland and Germany did not advance in research at the same basic rate. They knew disease screwed the western hemisphere severely while simultaneously making European conquest of Africa impossible in this timeframe.

But when making a game, you have to create mechanics and rules. Those rules can be inspired by history, and try to represent history somewhat. But they can't BE history, and they objectively can't result in historical outcomes, because the model is too abstract to create said outcomes naturally and forcing historical outcomes absent their circumstances is also objectively not historical.

Many players know this too. Yet how many threads do we see, in aggregate, about coalition mechanics in EU 4 compared to yet another thread about how unrealistic Indians are? About numerous other abstractions that are necessary for EU 4 to function? Many of these abstractions are, at BEST, tied with Indians, because you can't have something be less likely than "impossible".
 
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I think you missed the point I’m not asking for a historical simulation but game design that makes historical outcomes more not less possible. The more ahistorical outcomes the less immersive the game is for roleplayers.
 
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The more ahistorical outcomes the less immersive the game is for roleplayers.
Say what? I'm having a roleplaying Ming run right now to relocate ahistorically high European developments to Shanghai, and I don't understand your words at all.

Maybe you mean the historical-re-run people? Either way, the WC loving devs have made EU4 the way it is for new fans of the franchise (old fans like u and me are meaningless to them now, though I prefer the ahistorical sandbox EU3 unlike u), so vote with your wallet for changes that U want. If u can't adapt, then don't pay or play.
 
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Say what? I'm having a roleplaying Ming run right now to relocate ahistorically high European developments to Shanghai right now, and I don't understand your words at all.

Maybe you mean the historical-re-run people? Either way, the WC loving devs have made EU4 the way it is for new fans of the franchise (old fans like u and me are meaningless to them now, though I prefer the ahistorical sandbox EU3 unlike u), so vote with your wallet for changes that U want. If u can't adapt, then don't pay or play.
Let me put it like this there are lots of fun games out there but there aren’t any games that are as historical as Paradox games that are even close to being as fun. If you want a sandbox with a historical setting lots of lots of games have that but there’s very few games where you can reasonably recreate plausible outcomes. Or to put a different way imagine playing HOI and having Germany defeat Russia every time if you weren’t directly intervening. It would get pretty boring quickly. Likewise if you had Poland beating Germany 100% of the time this would be unimmersive. Hoi has shorter timeline and has to follow it more closely, think of EU IV as a lesser version of that, but the same logical applies. So in EU IV if you’re playing a game in Asia for example and you play more than a couple times it’s kind of disappointing to know that you will get a similar ahistorical outcome in China 100% of the time unless you take a specific action. Or if you’re playing any Indian country when the Europeans never really come and are a pushover because the game is poorly balanced now it ruins the immersion. If you just want a sandbox you can play civ or 1000 other games and imagine any scenario if you want.
 
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I find colonization even faster now. The natives are doing your work for you.
To me that doesn't feel like colonisation. I like the element of luck and integration that colonisation does by waiting for the 1,000 people to arrive and getting random trade goods rather than waiting for some natives to permanently making a trade good stay. You wouldn't want a gift if you already know the gift's contents, right?
 
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I think you missed the point I’m not asking for a historical simulation but game design that makes historical outcomes more not less possible. The more ahistorical outcomes the less immersive the game is for roleplayers.
On the contrary, the more historical outcome happen the more immersion breaking it is.

Why do you ask?

Because history don't set in stone, there is cause and effect if the cause change the effect would change too and the moment you hit unpause everything change because ai don't necessarily all choose to do the same thing as historical nation.

So for the historical outcome to happen, the stars need to be aligned for it or this cease to be a game but a time lapse video of history.

TLDR; butterfly effect is a thing, historical outcome is overrated.
 
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they can collectively own half the continent before the Spanish or Portuguese get there
Natives "owned" the entire continent before the Spanish and Portuguese got there...

Colonizers actually having to fight natives for the land? Seems historical to me!
 
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