Who else finds colonisation in North America too difficult/annoying?

[MachopPower69]

For example, since federations form and natives can "colonise", they can collectively own half the continent before the Spanish or Portuguese get there. It is annoying that the Iroquois own random provinces in the middle of the great plains while Cherokee controls all of the south with tribal or colonised lands as they federalise. Because of this, colonisers are lucky to get a few provinces colonised and the only way to expand is to battle tribal nations. I've been used to the old 1.30 mechanics where there was no tribal land and federations were less revamped.

Sorry if I'm complaining too much. It seems like North America is usually always controlled by non-Europeans in 1500 while Brazil is just free territory for colonisers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Native land = land you take w/o coring (or 5 cores, tops) and can then accelerate growth of a CN. 1.31 is more lucrative than 1.30 in several ways as a result.

They can make federations or reform or whatever but they can't actually fight back, if a player sends an army over and controls it decently. AI should be able to win too, except it instead tends to just ally them and/or do nothing.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Isn't it actually easier and quicker to just steal the land directly instead of sending colonists?

 

[Reman]

Isn't it actually easier and quicker to just steal the land directly instead of sending colonists?

Yes, it is. This is why experienced players only really considered going for Mexico + The Andes if they bothered to mess with the New World at all. The gold mines in both locations are nice, but the fact that those areas can be conquered is what really set both areas apart from the rest of the colonial regions. Passive colonization (i.e. sending a colonist and waiting) has always been a pretty terrible deal outside of setting up forward operating bases.

Now that natives can colonize other areas themselves, it might be worth considering conquering those areas too.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

For example, since federations form and natives can "colonise", they can collectively own half the continent before the Spanish or Portuguese get there. It is annoying that the Iroquois own random provinces in the middle of the great plains while Cherokee controls all of the south with tribal or colonised lands as they federalise. Because of this, colonisers are lucky to get a few provinces colonised and the only way to expand is to battle tribal nations. I've been used to the old 1.30 mechanics where there was no tribal land and federations were less revamped.

Sorry if I'm complaining too much. It seems like North America is usually always controlled by non-Europeans in 1500 while Brazil is just free territory for colonisers.

Yup, makes it alot harder. Charter trade company getting a colonial nation equivalent would be great to help promote the AI taking bits.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yup, makes it alot harder. Charter trade company getting a colonial nation equivalent would be great to help promote the AI taking bits.

I don't think that's necessary, the AI needs to be tuned to actually attack/put pressure on natives.

In each of my recent games AI set up CNs near Mexico, Florida, Canada, and at least a few provinces on the US East coast. After that, AI colonial overlords barely engage with the natives. If they instead pressed the attack to grow colonies, they'd get that land pretty often...their armies far outclass those of the natives. When I did the Quizquiz run, I had to delay reinforce/morale cycle more than 2x troops to beat Portugal when it attacked me in early war any time I needed to win a fight, then pin retreats to limit its retreat to Mexican CN. That's not something other AIs will do, they'll just lose the combats and thus the war.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

I don't think that's necessary, the AI needs to be tuned to actually attack/put pressure on natives.

In each of my recent games AI set up CNs near Mexico, Florida, Canada, and at least a few provinces on the US East coast. After that, AI colonial overlords barely engage with the natives. If they instead pressed the attack to grow colonies, they'd get that land pretty often...their armies far outclass those of the natives. When I did the Quizquiz run, I had to delay reinforce/morale cycle more than 2x troops to beat Portugal when it attacked me in early war any time I needed to win a fight, then pin retreats to limit its retreat to Mexican CN. That's not something other AIs will do, they'll just lose the combats and thus the war.

It's an overseas war, the AI needs as many crutches as it can get

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's an overseas war, the AI needs as many crutches as it can get

No more so than it needs crutches for attacking India or China. If it fails to take new world stuff, it fails. I'm not a fan of making otherwise playable positions into waitfests in the name of artificially improving AI performance (and in practice conferring that advantage to a player that races for it anyway).

 

[The Norman Yoke]

No more so than it needs crutches for attacking India or China. If it fails to take new world stuff, it fails. I'm not a fan of making otherwise playable positions into waitfests in the name of artificially improving AI performance (and in practice conferring that advantage to a player that races for it anyway).

It has crutches for India in charter trade company, protectorates helped it before hand.
The EoC will never accept charter trade company but if China balkanises you can take parts, if only Qing would routinely form and seize those parts back.

The AI getting an initial settlement in the Americas more easily isn't causing a waitfest for natives, its just giving them a potential rival if they don't unify fast enough

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It has crutches for India in charter trade company

These result in fewer Indian provinces going to Europeans than Europeans get in NA right now, so if charters are good enough for India then current colony situation should be fine in NA too. Assuming we're talking about Europeans conquering India, of course, since that isn't the only historical conquest of India in this period.

Typically Portugal, Spain, and England (or Norway) wind up with 10+ provinces each in NA. Usually there are CNs in Texas, Florida, Louisiana, California, Alaska, and Canada. California and Alaska happen later though, usually from whoever took Colombia or Peru using range from SA.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

These result in fewer Indian provinces going to Europeans than Europeans get in NA right now, so if charters are good enough for India then current colony situation should be fine in NA too. Assuming we're talking about Europeans conquering India, of course, since that isn't the only historical conquest of India in this period.

Typically Portugal, Spain, and England (or Norway) wind up with 10+ provinces each in NA. Usually there are CNs in Texas, Florida, Louisiana, California, Alaska, and Canada. California and Alaska happen later though, usually from whoever took Colombia or Peru using range from SA.

I think myself and many others would disagree about so wide a range of colonial nations often happening this patch

A slow conquest of India is acceptable as its only the late 1700s that colonisation really ramps up, meanwhile the colonisation of much of North American coast and some interior should be sorted by 1700, which I'm not really seeing. We'd see the Dutch struggle beforehand with how fast colonisation happened, but I think it's gone a bit too much this patch

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There's no clear reason colonization needs to happen by 1700 while Qing or Moroccan conquest of Songhai doesn't have to happen. It's baffling to me that 1.31 buffed colonies and there's all kinds of complaints because natives don't die often enough, even though "often enough" doesn't apply with similar standards anywhere else in the world.

Even in principle, it's not clear why it's more important for Iroquois to be conquered than Iran by Aq Qoyunlu, Songhai by Morocco, or HRE by France. Ottomans ally Tunis rather than conquer them in the overwhelming majority of games, but it's somehow a problem when a European nation does the same thing to NA tribes rather than conquering them. Doesn't make sense.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

There's no clear reason colonization needs to happen by 1700 while Qing or Moroccan conquest of Songhai doesn't have to happen. It's baffling to me that 1.31 buffed colonies and there's all kinds of complaints because natives don't die often enough, even though "often enough" doesn't apply with similar standards anywhere else in the world.

Even in principle, it's not clear why it's more important for Iroquois to be conquered than Iran by Aq Qoyunlu, Songhai by Morocco, or HRE by France. Ottomans ally Tunis rather than conquer them in the overwhelming majority of games, but it's somehow a problem when a European nation does the same thing to NA tribes rather than conquering them. Doesn't make sense.

Why do you keep on obfusciating?
Qing has plenty of buffs, like manchuria having more dev than Korea, unguarded frontier if criss of ming doesn't fire.
People don't want iroqouis dying, they just want reliable colonial nations and pockets of uncolonized provinces left to make the idea group worth it

 

[colinljx]

they just want reliable colonial nations and pockets of uncolonized provinces left to make the idea group worth it

It's worth it. Western Europe has actual developments to concentrate to Shanghai unlike shitty Russia/Asia.

 

[StriderLS]

To be honest, I was thinking alike before reading around a bit and trying those for myself. The Trail of Tears is real guys. As mentioned above, it's faster, more cost efficient and overall better to secure North America, as an European colonizer.

In my latest run, I decided to try sth. different though, based on a recommendation of a fellow forum member. Played as a custom nation with a crazy unlimited custom nation cheat mod. Sunni, Muslim Tech Group, Eastern Plutocracy with Delaware (East Coast Native) Culture.

It is the weirdest game I played in a long time. With a neighbouring "civilized" tag who gives them juicy neighbour tech discount, tech disparity was not 8-12 I was used to, it was between 3-6 on average when the first coalition war fired. I was careless and forgot that I'm not an European Great Power and instead a wrong religion country without any allies...

To put it simply, at the climax of the Punitive wars, had to fight almost half of the continent and it was, managable. Natives were devastated, even with all my stupid mistakes before/during wars.

Point is; natives, with all the advantages they got from neighboring me from the start, are still total pushovers. For players, Expansion is both faster and more rewarding (time and gold spent vs. the dev. you get). It's the AI that has difficulty in actually conquering the land but frankly, it's not news to anyone.

So before being discouraged by 1.31 natives, I recommend playing as one of the major colonizers and enjoy annexing everything after you established your colonial nation in NA.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

To be honest, I was thinking alike before reading around a bit and trying those for myself. The Trail of Tears is real guys. As mentioned above, it's faster, more cost efficient and overall better to secure North America, as an European colonizer.

In my latest run, I decided to try sth. different though, based on a recommendation of a fellow forum member. Played as a custom nation with a crazy unlimited custom nation cheat mod. Sunni, Muslim Tech Group, Eastern Plutocracy with Delaware (East Coast Native) Culture.

It is the weirdest game I played in a long time. With a neighbouring "civilized" tag who gives them juicy neighbour tech discount, tech disparity was not 8-12 I was used to, it was between 3-6 on average when the first coalition war fired. I was careless and forgot that I'm not an European Great Power and instead a wrong religion country without any allies...

To put it simply, at the climax of the Punitive wars, had to fight almost half of the continent and it was, managable. Natives were devastated, even with all my stupid mistakes before/during wars.

Point is; natives, with all the advantages they got from neighboring me from the start, are still total pushovers. For players, Expansion is both faster and more rewarding (time and gold spent vs. the dev. you get). It's the AI that has difficulty in actually conquering the land but frankly, it's not news to anyone.

So before being discouraged by 1.31 natives, I recommend playing as one of the major colonizers and enjoy annexing everything after you established your colonial nation in NA.

What the player can do is not congruent with how the AI should be balanced. Nor should MP centre how the game is balanced

 

[Nevars]

No, it's actually easier, native lands are free real estate.

Just park some army in new world and watch native get rolfstomp by them to expand your colony without the need of those pesky colonists.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

No, it's actually easier, native lands are free real estate.

Just park some army in new world and watch native get rolfstomp by them to expand your colony without the need of those pesky colonists.

Do you still suffer higher AE for their tribal dev than the actual dev you conquer?

 

[Nevars]

Do you still suffer higher AE for their tribal dev than the actual dev you conquer?

I don't think so.

Hmm I don't remember exactly how many AE the other natives in the area got from me but I remember that no one in the old world care about them, no AE.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Do you still suffer higher AE for their tribal dev than the actual dev you conquer?

Even if you did, only OPMs would have high dev anyway. Settled natives, which is what people are mostly complaining about here, will mostly just have have normal dev.

Also, AE accumulated with natives are kinda irrelevant.