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Emre Yigit

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Re: Re: industrMy own tuppenyworth

Originally posted by Keynes
THis judgment is apparently used based on population figures for 1800 showing the US with 4 million inhabitants. But in 1835 US population was between 14-16 million, ie significantly higher than Spain. And US industrialization was higher than any of the countries mentioned other than the UK. Thus, in economic-industrial terms, as well as in technological development, the US was a front rank power at the time.

Since I don't mention population much for the 1830 analysis, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. Yes, I know the US had a far higher population by then, but also lacked the capability to project power outside of the Americas (indeed outside of NE North America). Moreover, US industrialisation per capita was apparently significantly lower than the UK's in 1830.





That leaves the "weak" military as the only viable reason for leaving the US off the major powers list (which includes much weaker economic countries like Prussia, Spain, Ottomans). The problem is the identical argument could be use to prove that the US was a minor power in 1913 or 1937, which is absurd.

If that were the only criterion, I would agree. But it isn't. Are you seriously saying that the 1830 US could have beaten any of "great" or "major" powers in my list in a war outside US turf?



The relevant consideration is whether the US could quickly convert its economic strength into effective military power at short notice if needed. The Mexican War, in which the US rapidly mobilized and deployed an advanced military force which quickly annihilated a mid-ranked power with a large professional army (Mexico) proves that it could do. Add on another decade and a half, and the US manages to mobilize armies numbering in the millions led by excellent commanders and equipped with the most technologically advanced weaponry in the world.

True-ish. Except - if I may use a sporting analogy - the premier league was in Europe where the national teams were constantly tested (up to c1871) whereas the US was largely untried. Not until the ACW did the US begin to realise the potential for war - and by then, I believe it was a major power.

Moreover the industrial strength story is not as important in 1830 as it was to become a mere 30 years later. Predominantly agrarian societies such as the Russians could still easily rank first in terms of power. Also, if I may borrow a phrase from you "in economic-industrial terms, as well as in technological development, the US was a second or third rank power at the time" with industrial output less than, say, Japan's (or 3/4 that of Austria-Hungary, or 1/2 that of France or about 1/4 that of the UK, or about 1/10 that of China!)
 
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Keynes

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Re: Re: Re: industrMy own tuppenyworth

Originally posted by Emre Yigit
know the US had a far higher population by then, but also lacked the capability to project power outside of the Americas (indeed outside of NE North America).
Of the "major" powers listed, none meet this criterion. Neither Prussia nor the Ottomans could project power significantly beyond their borders in this period. As for Spain, it couldnt even hold on to the vast bulk of its already existing colonial territories.

Are you seriously saying that the 1830 US could have beaten any of "great" or "major" powers in my list in a war outside US turf?
On "neutral" turf, it probably could have beat Prussia or the Ottomans, who lacked modern navies

Moreover the industrial strength story is not as important in 1830 as it was to become a mere 30 years later.
I dont agree. If that were true, the UK would not have been a great power due to her low population and food production. (the UK also had a tiny standing army). The UK is to the other Great Powers (France, Russia) as the US is to the "major powers".

Also, if I may borrow a phrase from you "in economic-industrial terms, as well as in technological development, the US was a second or third rank power at the time" with industrial output less than, say, Japan's (or 3/4 that of Austria-Hungary, or 1/2 that of France or about 1/4 that of the UK, or about 1/10 that of China!)
Again, on this basis, the UK has a second rate industrial power behinf the giants of China and India. But the relevant measure is not total output, which essentiallty gives massive credit for simply producing subsistence level output, but *industrial* might. The US already had 1000 miles of railroad track by 1835 and would have 3000 in 1840; it was much farther advanced in terms of industry and tech development than any nation other than the UK (the French would soon catch up but never overtake). The US was already famous for its inventors, and had already pioneered and implemented interchangeable parts in manufacturing, precision manufactuing using standardized machine tools, and the first mass production facilites.

As I understand it, Victoria is not a WC game, but one where industrial strength, military strength, and "prestige" (cultural influence) are all equally important. On that basis, the US ranks as a significant power already in 1835; not a Great Power by any means, but surely in the top 8.
 
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How much prestige and military strength did the US have in 1835? Not one of the other powers really gave a damn about her, and she had one of the smallest standing armies. Also in 1835 the British owned most of India;)
 

Keynes

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Originally posted by Vendere Sacerdo
How much prestige and military strength did the US have in 1835?
Prestige: Many European intellectuals devoted great interest to America because of its democratic experiment. For example, De Tocqueville wrote Democracy in America in 1835-1840. Industrialists in Europe paid considerable attention to what was called the "american way of manufactures". Historic American leaders like Washington and Franklin were still greatly admired among European liberals. The Rothschilds thought America sufficiently important that they started their first non-European branch there in the 1830s, even though it meant giving power and authority to a non-family member, Auguste Belmont.

The existence of a standing army IMO is the least important aspect of power. The US had no standing army of consequence in 1914 and a very small one in 1937. That did not make it a minor power.
 

Alerias

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hmm! According to that new game screeenshot theres no longer a neat little paragraph that talks about the country youre trying to pick are no longer there :(

That was one of my favorite features, and some countries' descriptions were impressive. I especially liked HoI's Germany description. I'd miss them sorely in Victoria, though i suppose i already know the history. I hope i can at least write some up and have them displayed in custom scenario.
 

Pokka

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Originally posted by Keynes
Prestige: Many European intellectuals devoted great interest to America because of its democratic experiment. For example, De Tocqueville wrote Democracy in America in 1835-1840. Industrialists in Europe paid considerable attention to what was called the "american way of manufactures". Historic American leaders like Washington and Franklin were still greatly admired among European liberals. The Rothschilds thought America sufficiently important that they started their first non-European branch there in the 1830s, even though it meant giving power and authority to a non-family member, Auguste Belmont.

The existence of a standing army IMO is the least important aspect of power. The US had no standing army of consequence in 1914 and a very small one in 1937. That did not make it a minor power.

But still, I can definately say that USA is not a great power in 1830s. It is just a nation with lots of rural area! At that time, there are bunch of stronger nations, UK, France, Prussia, Russia, Austria, Ottoman, Netherlands, even Mexico, Argentina, Sweden, Spain, Belgium are much better than US. :wacko:
 

Elijah

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Wellll, if theres indeed 8 great powers in 1830 I'd still take US as being there above say Belgium or Sweden in these examples. As far as I understand, the Swedish military hadn't really been much to speak of since the days of Karl XII, and economically they had neither the natural resources nor the industrial base of 1830's US? Certainly if US is on the list in 1830 they are in the 7 or 8 slot, but they did perform moderately well in the war of 1812, winning a few land battles here and there and most importantly fighting very respectably against the British navy which everyone considered completely without equal before the war. The yankee clippers were arguably the finest vessels in the world at the time. Of course they were not on the level of UK,France,Austria,Prussia, or Russia, or even the Ottomans, but I think they are easily power-wise in the class of Belgium. Mexico, or Sweden. ALso, while knowing next to nothing about the engine, I'd very much suspect their equivalent to diplo sliders are set much better than most nations.
 

Elijah

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Some interesting historical notes I stumbled across:


21 July 1812
Captain Isaac Hull to Secretary of the Navy Paul Hamilton
U.S. Frigate Constitution
At Sea July 21st 1812


Sir,

In pursuance of your orders of the 3d inst I left Annapolis on the 5th inst and the Capes on the 12th of which I advised you by the Pilot that brought the Ship to sea.

For several days after we got out the wind was light, and ahead which with a Strong Southerly current prevented our making much way to the Northward On the 17th at 2 PM being in 22 fathoms water off Egg harbour four sail of Ships were discovered from the Mast Head to the Northward and in shore of us; apparently Ships of War The wind being very light all sail was made in chase of them, to ascertain whether they were Enemy's Ships, or our Squadron having got out of New York waiting the arrival of the Constitution, the latter of which, I had reason to believe was the case.

At 4 in the afternoon a Ship was seen from the Mast head bearing about NE Standing for us under all sail, which she continued to do until Sundown at which time, she was too far off to distinguish signals and the Ships in Shore, only to be seen from the Tops, they were standing off to the Southward, and Eastward. As we could not ascertain before dark, what the Ship in the offing was, I determined to stand for her and get near enough to make the night signal. At 10 in the Evening being within Six or Eight miles of the Strange sail, the Private Signal was made, and kept up nearly one hour, but finding she could not answer it, I concluded she, and the Ships in Shore were Enemy. I immediately hauled off to the Southward, and Eastward, and made all sail, having determined to lay off till day light, to see what they were. The Ship that we had been chasing hauled off after us showing a light, and occasionally making signals, supposed to be for the Ships in Shore.

18th. At day light, or a little before it was quite light, Saw two sail under our Lee, which proved to be Frigates of the Enemies. One Frigate astern within about five or Six miles, and a Line of Battle Ship, a Frigate, a Brig, and Schooner, about ten or twelve miles directly astern all in chase of us, with a fine breeze, and coming up very fast it being nearly calm where we were. Soon after Sunrise the wind entirely left us, and the Ship would not steer but fell round off with her head towards the two Ships under our lee.

The Boats were instantly hoisted out, and sent ahead to tow the Ships head round, and to endeavour to get her farther from the Enemy, being then within five miles of three heavy Frigates. The Boats of the Enemy were got out, and sent ahead to tow, which with the light air that remained with them, they came up very fast. Finding the Enemy coming fast up and but little chance of escaping from them; I ordered two of the Guns on the Gun Deck, run out at the Cabbin windows for Stern Guns on the gun deck, and hoisted one of the 24 Pounders off the Gundeck, and run that, with the Fore Castle Gun, an Eighteen pounder, out at the Ports on the quarter Deck, and cleared the Ship for Action, being determined they should not get her, without resistance on our part, notwithstanding their force, and the situation we were placed in. At about 7 in the Morning the Ship nearest us approaching with Gun Shot, and directly astern, I ordered one of the Stern Guns fired to see if we could reach her, to endeavour to disable her masts, found the Shot fell a little Short, would not fire any more.

At 8 four of the Enemy's Ships nearly within Gun Shot, some of them having six or eight boats ahead towing, with all their oars, and sweeps out to row them up with us, which they were fast doeing. It soon appeared that we must be taken, and that our Escape was impossible, four heavy Ships nearly within Gun Shot, and coming up fast, and not the least hope of a breeze, to give us a chance of getting off by out sailing them. In this Situation finding ourselves in only twenty four fathoms water (by the suggestion of that valuable officer Lieutenant [Charles] Morris) I determined to try and warp the Ship ahead, by carrying out anchors and warp her up to them, Three or four hundred fathoms of rope was instantly got up, and two anchors got ready and sent ahead, by which means we began to gain ahead of the Enemy, They however soon saw our Boats carrying out the anchors, and adopted the same plan, under very advantageous circumstances, as all the Boats, from the Ship furthermost off were sent to Tow, and Warp up those nearest to us, by which means they again came up, So that at 9 the Ship nearest us began firing her bow guns, which we instantly returned by our Stern guns in the cabbin, and on the quarter Deck; All the Shots from the Enemy fell short, but we have reason to believe that some of ours went on board her, as we could not see them strike the Water.

Soon after 9 a Second Frigate passed under our lee, and opened her Broadside, but finding her shot fall short, discontinued her fire, but continued as did all the rest of them, to make every possible exertion to get up with us. From 9 to 12 all hands were employed in warping the Ship ahead, and in starting some of the water in the main Hold, to lighten her, which with the help of a light air, we rather gained of the Enemy, or at least hold our own. About 2 in the afternoon, all the Boats from the line of Battle Ship, and some of the Frigates, were sent to the Frigate nearest to us, to endeavour to tow her up, but a light breeze sprung up, which enabled us to hold way with her notwithstanding they had Eight or Ten Boats ahead, and all her sails furled to tow her to windward. The wind continued light until 11 at night, and the Boats were kept ahead towing, and warping to keep out of the reach of the Enemy, Three of their Frigates being very near us. At 11 we got a light breeze from the Southward, the boats came along side, and were hoisted up, the Ship having too much way to keep them ahead, The Enemy still in chase, and very near.

19th. At day light passed within gunshot of one of the Frigates but she did not fire on us, perhaps for fear of becalming her as the wind was light Soon after passing us, she tacked, and stood after us, at this time Six Sail were in Sight under all sail after us.

At 9 in the morning saw a Strange sail on our Weather Beam, supposed to be an American merchant ship, the instant the Frigate, nearest us saw her she hoisted American colours, as did all the Squadron in hopes to decoy her down, I immediately hoisted English colours, that she might not be deceived, she soon hauled her wind, and it is to be hoped made her escape. All this day the Wind increased gradually and we gained on the Enemy, in the course of the day Six or Eight miles, they however continued chasing us all night under a press of Sail.

20th. At day light in the Morning only three of them could be seen from the Mast head, the nearest of which, was about 12 miles off directly astern. All hands were set at work wetting the Sails, from the Royals down, with the Engine, and Fire buckets, and we soon found that we left the Enemy very fast. At 1/4 past 8 the Enemy finding that they were fast dropping astern, gave over chase, and hauled their wind to the Northward, probably for the Station off New York. At 1/2 past 8 Saw a sail ahead gave chase after her under all sail. At 9 Saw another Strange sail under our Lee Bow, we soon spoke the first sail, discovered and found her to be an American Brig from St Domingue bound Portland, I directed the Captain how to steer to avoid the Enemy, and made sail for the vessel to leeward, on coming up with her, She proved to be an American Brig from St Bartholemews, bound to Philadelphia, but on being informed of War he bore up for Charleston, S.C.

Finding the Ship so far to the Southward, and Eastward, and the Enemy's Squadron stationed off New York, which would make it impossible for the Ship to get in there. I determined to make for Boston to receive your further orders, and I hope that my having done so will meet your approbation. My wish to explain to you as clearly as possible why your orders, have not been executed, and the length of time the Enemy were in chase of us with various other circumstances, has caused me to make this communication much longer than I would have wished, yet I cannot (in justice to the brave Officers, and crew under my Command) close it without expressing to you the confidence I have in them, and assuring you that their conduct whilst under the Guns of the Enemy was such as might have been expected from American Officers and Seamen. I have the Honour to be [&c.]

Isaac Hull


Source: National Archives, Record Group 45, Captain's Letters, 1812, Volume 2, No.127.


Just three weeks after escaping from the British squadron off of New Jersey, Constitution was once again at sea patrolling. On 19 August 1812, Constitution again came into contact with H.M.S. Guerriere, the same British frigate that had begun the chase of Constitution a month prior. This time, however, the English frigate was alone, and both ships closed in battle.

Captain Hull's official account of Constitution's victory over the 38-gun Guerriere is followed by the official British version of the battle by Guerriere's captain, James R. Dacres. The Constitution's victory was a rare bright spot for the United States' military in the opening months of the war and gained the ship her beloved nickname, "Old Ironsides."





Captain Isaac Hull to Secretary of the Navy Paul Hamilton

U S Frigate Constitution
off Boston Light August 28th 1812


Sir,

I have the Honour to inform you that on the 19th inst. at 2 PM being in Lattitude 41° 42° Longitude 55° 48° with the wind from the Northward, and the Constitution under my command Steering to the S.SW. a sail was discovered from the Mast head bearing E by S. or E.SE. but at such a distance that we could not make Out what she was. All sail was immediately made in chace, and we soon found we came fast up with the chace, so that at 3 PM. we could make her Out to be a Ship on the Starboard tack close by the wind under easy sail. At 1/2 past 3 PM. closing very fast with the chace could see that she was a large Frigate, At 3/4 past 3 the chace backed her Maintopsail, and lay by on the Starboard tack; I immediately ordered the light sails taken in, and the Royal Yards sent down, took two reefs in the topsails, hauled up the foresail, and mainsail and see all clear for action, after all was clear the Ship was ordered to be kept away for the Enemy, on hearing of which the Gallant crew gave three cheers, and requested to be laid close alongside the chace. As we bore up she hoisted an English Ensign at the Mizen Gaff, another in the Mizen Shrouds, and a Jack at the Fore, and MizentopGallant mast heads. At 5 minutes past 5 PM. as we were running down on her weather quarter She fired a Broadside, but without effect the Shot all falling short, she then wore and gave us a broadside from Larboard Guns, two of which Shot Struck us but without doing any injury. At this time finding we were within gunshot, I ordered the Ensign hoisted at the Mizen Peak, and a Jack at the Fore and MizentopGallant mast head, and a Jack bent ready for hoisting at the Main, the Enemy continued wearing, and manoeuvering for about 3/4 of an hour, to get the wind of us. At length finding that she could not, she bore up to bring the wind, on the quarter, and run under her Topsails, and Gib, finding that we came up very slow, and were receiving her shot without being able to return them with effect, I ordered the MaintopGallant sail set, to run up alongside of her.

At 5 minutes past 6 PM being alongside, and within less than Pistol Shot, we commenced a very heavy fire from all of our Guns, loaded with round, and grape, which done great Execution, so much so that in less than fifteen minutes from the time, we got alongside, his Mizen Mast went by the board, and his Main Yard in the Slings, and the Hull, and Sails very much injured, which made it very difficult for them to manage her. At this time the Constitution had received but little damage, and having more sail set than the Enemy she shot ahead, on seeing this I determined to put the Helm to Port, and oblige him to do the same, or suffer himself to be raked, by our getting across his Bows, on our Helm being put to Port the Ship came too, and gave us an opportunity of pouring in upon his Larboard Bow several Broadsides, which made great havock amongst his men on the forecastle and did great injury to his forerigging, and sails, The Enemy put his helm to Port, at the time we did, but his MizenMast being over the quarter, prevented her coming too, which brought us across his Bows, with his Bowsprit over our Stern. At this moment I determined to board him, but the instant the Boarders were called, for that purpose, his Foremast, and Mainmast went by the board, and took with them the Gib-boom, and every other Spar except the Bowsprit. On seeing the Enemy totally disabled, and the Constitution received but little injury I ordered the Sails filled, to hawl off, and repair our damages and return again to renew the action, not knowing whither the Enemy had struck, or not, we stood off for about half an hour, to repair our Braces, and such other rigging, as had been shot away, and wore around to return to the Enemy, it being now dark, we could not see whether she had any colours, flying or not, but could discover that she had raised a small flag Staff or Jurymast forward. I ordered a Boat hoisted out, and sent Lieutenant Reed on board as a flag to see whether she had surrendered or not, and if she had to see what assistance she wanted, as I believed she was sinking. Lieutenant Reed returned in about twenty minutes, and brought with him, James Richard Dacres Esqr. Commander of his Britannic Majesty's Frigate the Guerriere, which ship had surrendered, to the United States Frigate Constitution, our Boats were immediately hoisted out and sent for the Prisoners, and were kept at work bringing them and their Baggage on board, all night. At daylight we found the Enemy's Ship a perfect Wreck, having many Shot holes between wind, and water, and above Six feet of the Plank below the Bends taken out by our round Shot, and her upperwork[s so] shattered to pieces, that I determined to take out the sick and wounded as fast as possible, and set her on fire, as it would be impossible to get her into Port.

At 3 PM. all the Prisoners being out, Mr Reed was ordered to set fire to her in the Store Rooms, which he did and in a very short time she blew up. I want words to convey to you the Bravery, and Gallant conduct, of the Officers, and the crew under my command during the action. I can therefore only assure you, that so well directed was the fire of the Constitution, and so closely kept up, that in less than thirty minutes, from the time we got alongside of the Enemy (One of their finest Frigates) She was left without a Spar Standing, and the Hull cut to pieces, in such a manner as to make it difficult to keep her above water, and the Constitution in a State to be brought into action in two hours. Actions like these speak for themselves which makes it unnecessary for me to say any thing to Establish the Bravery and Gallant conduct of those that were engaged in it, Yet I cannot but make you acquainted with the very great assistance I received from that valuable officer Lieutenant Morris in bringing the Ship into action, and in working her whilst alongside the Enemy, and I am extremely sorry to state that he is badly wounded, being shot through the Body. we have yet hopes of his recovery, when I am sure, he will receive the thanks, and gratitude of his Country, for this and the many Gallant acts he has done in its Service. Were I to name any particular Officer as having been more useful than the rest, I should do them great Injustice, they all fought bravely, and gave me every possible assistance, that I could wish. I am extremely sorry to state to you the loss of Lieutenant [William S.] Bush of Marines. He fell at the head of his men in getting ready to board the Enemy. In him our Country has lost a Valuable and Brave Officer. After the fall of Mr Bush, Mr [Lieutenant John] Contee took command of the Marines, and I have pleasure in saying that his conduct was that of a Brave good Officer, and the Marines behaved with great coolness, and courage during the action, and annoyed the Enemy very much whilst she was under our Stern.

Enclosed I have the Honour to forward you a list of Killed, and Wounded, on board the Constitution, and a list of Killed, and Wounded, on board the Enemy, with a List of her crew and a Copy of her quarter Bill, also a report of the damage the Constitution received in the Action. I have the honour to be [&c.]

Isaac Hull


Source: National Archives, Record Group 45, Captain's Letters, 1812, Vol. 2, No. 207. This report, written on 28 Aug., was the first and most detailed report Hull wrote on this action, but he sent a shorter version, dated 30 Aug., to the secretary with a note stating that he had drafted a "short sketch" which the secretary might deem more worthy of publication.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Captain James R. Dacres, Royal Navy, to Vice Admiral Herbert Sawyer, Royal Navy

Boston 7th September 1812


Sir,

I am sorry to inform you of the Capture of His Majesty's late Ship Guerriere by the American Frigate Constitution after a severe action on the 19th of August in Latitude 40.20 N and Longitude 55.00 West At 2 PM being by the Wind on the starboard Tack, we saw a Sail on our Weather Beam, bearing down on us. At 3 made her out to be a Man of War, beat to Quarters and prepar'd for Action. At 4, She closing fast wore to prevent her raking us. At 4.10 hoisted our Colours and fir'd several shot at her. At 4.20 She hoisted her Colours and return'd our fire. Wore several times, to avoid being raked, Exchanging broadsides. At 5 She clos'd on our Starboard Beam, both keeping up a heavy fire and steering free, his intention being evidently to cross our bow. At 5.20, our Mizen Mast went over the starboard quarter and brought the Ship up in the Wind. The Enemy then plac'd himself on our larboard Bow, raking us, a few only of our bow Guns bearing and his Grape and Riflemen sweeping our Deck. At 5.40 the Ship not answering her helm, he attempted to lay up on board at this time. Mr [Samuel] Grant who commanded the Forecastle was carried below badly wounded. I immediately order'd the Marines and Boarders from the Main Deck; the Master was at this time shot thro the knee, and I receiv'd a severe wound in the back. Lieutenant [Bartholomew] Kent was leading on the Boarders, when the Ship coming too, we brought some of our bow guns to bear on her and had got clear of our opponent when at 6.20 our Fore and Main Masts went over the side, leaving the Ship a perfect unmanageable Wreck. The Enemy shooting ahead, I was in hopes to clear the Wreck and get the Ship under Command to renew the Action but just as we had clear'd the Wreck our Spritsail yard went and the Enemy having rove new Braces &c, wore round within Pistol Shot to rake us, The Ship laying in the trough of the Sea and rolling her Main Deck Guns under Water and all attempts to get her before the Wind being fruitless, when calling my few remaining officers together, they were all of opinion that any further resistance would be a needless waste of lives, I order'd, though reluctantly, the Colours to be struck.

The loss of the Ship is to be ascribed to the early fall of the Mizen Mast which enabled our opponent to choose his position. I am sorry to say we suffered severely in killed and wounded and mostly whilst she lay on our Bow from her Grape and Musketry, in all 15 kill'd and 63 wounded, many of them severely; none of the wounded Officers quitted the Deck till the firing ceas'd.

The Frigate prov'd to be the United States Ship Constitution, of thirty 24 Pounders on her Main Deck and twenty four 32 Pounders and two 18 Pounders on her Upper Deck and 476 Men-her loss in comparison with ours was triffling, about twenty, the first Lieutenant of Marines and eight killed and first Lieutenant and Master of the Ship and eleven Men wounded, her lower Masts badly wounded; and stern much shattered and very much cut up about the Rigging.

The Guerriere was so cut up, that all attempts to get her in would have been useless. As soon as the wounded were got out of her, they set her on fire, and I feel it my duty to state that the conduct of Captain Hull and his Officers to our Men has been that of a brave Enemy, the greatest care being taken to prevent our Men losing the smallest trifle, and the greatest attention being paid to the wounded who through the attention and skill of Mr [John] Irvine, Surgeon, I hope will do well.
I hope though success has not crown'd our efforts, you will not think it presumptuous in me to say the greatest Credit is due to the Officers and Ship's Company for their exertions, particularly when exposed to the heavy raking fire of the Enemy. I feel particularly obliged for the exertions of Lieutenant Kent who though wounded early by a Splinter continued to assist me; in the second Lieutenant the Service has suffered a severe loss; Mr [Robert] Scott, the Master, though wounded was particularly attentive and used every exertion in clearing the Wreck as did the Warrant Officers. Lieutenant [William] Nicoll of the Royal Marines and his party supported the honorable Character of their Corps, and they suffer'd severely. I must particularly recommend Mr [William] Snow, Masters Mate, who commanded the foremost Main Deck guns in the absence of Lieutenant [John] Pullman and the whole after the fall of Lieutenant [Henry] Ready, to your protection, he having serv'd his time and received a severe contusion from a Splinter. I must point out Mr [John] Garby, Acting Purser, to your notice, who volunteer'd his Services on Deck, and commanded the after quarter Deck Guns and was particularly active as well as Mr [John W.] Bannister, Midshipman who has passed.

I hope, in considering the circumstances, you will think the Ship entrusted to my charge was properly defended; the unfortunate loss of our Masts, the absence of the third lieutenant, second Lieutenant of Marines, three Midshipmen, and twenty four Men considerably weakened our Crew, and we only muster'd at Quarters 244 Men and 19 Boys, on coming into action; the Enemy had such an advantage from his Marines and Riflemen, when close and his superior sailing enabled him to choose his distance.

I enclose herewith a List of killed and wounded on board the Guerriere and have the Honor to be Sir, Your most obedient &c.

Sign'd J R Dacres
Vice Admiral Sawyer
Commander in Chief
&c &c &c Halifax

Source: British Public Record Office, Admiralty 1/502, Part 4, 541-45.


Defeat of HMS Java, 1812
Old Ironsides' Battle Record: Documents of USS Constitution's Illustrious Deeds
Shortly, after Christmas, 1812, Constitution was sailing in the Atlantic just off the coast of Brazil. On the morning of 29 December, sails were sighted on the horizon, and Constitution's new captain, William Bainbridge, altered course to investigate. The ship proved to be HMS Java, a frigate similar to Guerriere. Both frigates stood for each other and cleared their decks for action.

The documents that follow are the American and English reports back to their respective navies. Captain Bainbridge writes the American dispatch, but the British account is written by the first lieutenant of Java, Henry Chads. The defeat of Java, the second frigate lost to Constitution in six months, motivated a change in the tactics of the Royal Navy. No longer would their frigates be allowed to engage American frigates like Constitution alone. Only British ships-of-the-line or squadrons were permitted to come close enough to these ships to attack.





Journal of Commodore William Bainbridge

Extract from Commodore
Bainbridge's Journal Kept
on board the U. S. Frigate
Constitution

Tuesday 29th December 1812

At 9 AM, discovered two Strange Sails on the weather bow, at 10. AM. discovered the strange sails to be Ships, one of them stood in for the land, and the other steered off shore in a direction towards us. At 10.45. We tacked ship to the Nd & Wd and stood for the sail standing towards us,-At 11 tacked to the Sd & Ed hauld up the mainsail and took in the Royals. At 11.30 AM made the private signal for the day, which was not answered, & then set the mainsail and royals to draw the strange sail off from the neutral Coast.

Wednesday 30th December 1812, (Nautical Time) Commences with Clear weather and moderate breezes from E.N.E. Hoisted our Ensign and Pendant. At 15 minutes past meridian, The ship hoisted her colours, an English Ensign, --having a signal flying at her Main Red Yellow-Red At 1.26 being sufficiently from the land, and finding the ship to be an English Frigate, took in the Main Sail and Royals, tacked Ship and stood for the enemy

At 1 .50. P.M, The Enemy bore down with an intention of rakeing us, which we avoided by wearing. At 2, P.M, the enemy being within half a mile, of us, and to wind ward, & having hawled down his colours to dip his Gafft, and not hoisting them again except an Union Jack at the Mizen Mast head, (we having hoisted on board the Constitution an American Jack forward Broad Pendant at Main, American Ensign at Mizen Top Gallant Mast head and at the end of The Gafft) induced me to give orders to the officer of the 3rd Division to fire one Gun ahead of the enemy to make him show his Colours, which being done brought on afire from us of the whole broadside, on which he hoisted an English Ensign at the Peak, and another in his weather Main Rigging, besides his Pendant and then immediately returned our fire, which brought on a general action with round and grape.

The enemy Kept at a much greater distance than I wished, but Could not bring him to closer action without exposing ourselves to several rakes.-Considerable Manoeuvers were made by both Vessels to rake and avoid being raked.

The following Minutes Were Taken during the Action

At 2.10. P.M, Commenced The Action within good grape and Canister distance. The enemy to windward (but much farther than I wished).
At 2,30. P.M, our wheel was shot entirely away
At 2.40. determined to close with the Enemy, notwithstanding her rakeing, set the Fore sail & Luff'd up close to him.
At 2,50, The Enemies Jib boom got foul of our Mizen Rigging
At 3 The Head of the enemies Bowsprit & Jib boom shot away by us
At 3.5 Shot away the enemies foremast by the board
At 3.15 Shot away The enemies Main Top mast just above the Cap
At 3.40 Shot away Gafft and Spunker boom
At 3.55 Shot his mizen mast nearly by the board
At 4.5 Having silenced the fire of the enemy completely and his colours in main Rigging being [down] Supposed he had Struck, Then hawl'd about the Courses to shoot ahead to repair our rigging, which was extremely cut, leaving the enemy a complete wreck, soon after discovered that The enemies flag was still flying hove too to repair Some of our damages.
At 4.20. The Enemies Main Mast went by the board.
At 4.50 [Wore] ship and stood for the Enemy
At 5.25 Got very close to the enemy in a very [effective] rakeing position, athwart his bows & was at the very instance of rakeing him, when he most prudently Struck his Flag.


Had The Enemy Suffered the broadside to have raked him previously to strikeing, his additional loss must have been extremely great laying like a log upon the water, perfectly unmanageable, I could have continued rakeing him without being exposed to more than two of his Guns, (if even Them)

After The Enemy had struck, wore Ship and reefed the Top Sails, hoisted out one of the only two remaining boats we had left out of 8 & sent Lieut [George] Parker 1st of the Constitution on board to take possession of her, which was done about 6. P.M, The Action continued from the commencement to the end of the Fire, 1 H 55 m our sails and Rigging were shot very much, and some of our spars injured-had 9 men Killed and 26 wounded. At 7 PM. The boat returned from the Prize with Lieut. [Henry D.] Chads the 1st of the enemies Frigate (which I then learnt was the Java rated 38 - had 49 Guns mounted--)-and Lieut Genl [Thomas] Hislop-appointed to Command in the East Indies,-Major Walker and Capt Wood, belonging to his Staff. -Capt [Henry] Lambert of the Java was too dangerously wounded to be removed immediately.

The Cutter returned on board the Prize for Prisoners, and brought Capt [John] Marshall, Master & Commander of The British Navy, who was passenger on board, as also Several other Naval officers destined for ships in the East Indies. The Java had her whole number complete and nearly an hundred supernumeraries. The number she had on board at the commencement of the Action, The officers have not candour to say; from the different papers we collected, such as a muster book, Watch List and quarter Bills, she must have had upwards of 400 souls, she had one more man stationed at each of her Guns on both Decks than what we had The Enemy had 83 wounded & 57 Kill'd.

The Java was an important ship fitted out in the compleatest manner to [carry out] the Lieut. Genl & dispatches. She had Copper &c. on board for a 74 building at Bombay, and, I suspect a great many other valuables, but every thing was blown up, except the officers baggage when we set her on fire on the 1st of January 1813 at 3 P.M. Nautical Time.

Source: National Archives, Record Group 45, Captain's Letters, 1813, Vol.1, No.8 1/2.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lieutenant Henry D. Chads, Royal Navy, to Secretary of the Admiralty John W. Croker

Triplicate

United States Frigate Constitution
off St Salvador Decr 31st 1812


Sir

It is with deep regret that I write you for the information of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty that His Majesty's Ship Java is no more, after sustaining an action on the 29th Inst for several hours with the American Frigate Constitution which resulted in the Capture and ultimate destruction of His Majestys Ship. Captain Lambert being dangerously wounded in the height of the Action, the melancholy task of writing the detail devolves on me.

On the morning of the 29th inst at 8 AM off St Salvador (Coast of Brazil) the wind at NE. we perceived a strange sail, made all sail in chace and soon made her out to be a large Frigate; at noon prepared for action the chace not answering our private Signals and backing towards us under easy sail; when about four miles distant she made a signal and immediately tacked and made all sail away upon the wind, we soon found we had the advantage of her in sailing and came up with her fast when she hoisted American Colours. she then bore about three Points on our lee bow at 1:50 PM the Enemy shortened Sail upon which we bore down upon her, at 2:10 when about half a mile distant she opened her fire giving us her larboard broad-side which was not returned till we we were close on her weather bow; both Ships now manoeuvered to obtain advantageous positions; our opponent evidently avoiding close action and firing high to disable our masts in which he succeeded too well having shot away the head of our bowsprit with the Jib boom and our running rigging so much cut as to prevent our preserving the weather gage At 3:5 finding the Enemys raking fire extreemly heavy Captain Lambert ordered the Ship to be laid on board, in which we should have succeeded had not our foremast been shot away at this moment, the remains of our bowsprit passing over his taffrail, shortly after this the main topmast went leaving the Ship totally unmanageable with most of our Starboard Guns rendered useless from the wreck laying over them At 3:30 our Gallant Captain received a dangerous wound in the breast and was carried below, from this time we could not fire more than two or three guns until 4:15 when our Mizen mast was shot away the Ship then fell off a little and brought many of our Starboard Guns to bear, the Enemy's rigging was so much cut that he could not now avoid shooting ahead which brought us fairly Broadside and Broadside. Our Main yard now went in the slings both ships continued engaged in this manner till 4:35 we frequently on fire in consequence of the wreck laying on the side engaged. Our opponent now made sail ahead out of Gun shot where he remained an hour repairing his damages leaving us an unmanageable wreck with only the mainmast left, and that toterring; Every exertion was made by us during his interval to place this Ship in a state to renew the action. We succeeded in clearing the wreck of our Masts from our Guns. a Sail was set on the stumps of the Foremast & Bowsprit the weather half of the Main Yard remaining aloft, the main tack was got forward in the hope of getting the Ship before the Wind, our helm being still perfect. the effort unfortunately proved ineffectual from the Main mast falling over the side from the heavy rolling of the Ship, which nearly covered the whole of our Starboard Guns. We still waited the attack of the Enemy, he now standing toward us for that purpose. on his coming nearly within hail of us & from his manouvre perceiving he intended a position a head where he could rake us without a possibility of our returning a shot. I then consulted the Officers who agreed with myself that on having a great part of our Crew killed & wounded our Bowsprit and three masts gone, several guns useless, we should not be justified in waisting the lives of more of those remaining whom I hope their Lordships & Country will think have bravely defended His Majestys Ship. Under these circumstances, however reluctantly at 5:50 our Colours were lowered from the Stump of the Mizen Mast and we were taken possession a little after 6. by the American Frigate Constitution commanded by Commodore Bainbridge who immediately after ascertaining the state of the Ship resolved on burning her which we had the satisfaction of seeing done as soon as the Wounded were removed. Annexed I send you a return of a killed and wounded and it is with pain I perceive it so numerous also a statement of the comparative force of the two Ships when I hope their Lordships will not think the British Flag tarnished although success has not attended us. It would be presumptive in me to speak of Captain Lamberts merit, who, though still in danger from his wound we still entertain the greatest hopes of his being restored to the service & his Country. It is most gratifying to my feelings to notice the general gallantry of every Officer, Seaman & Marine on board. in justice to the Officers I beg leave to mention them individually. I can never speak too highly of the able exertions of Lieuts. [William A.] Herringham & Buchanan and also Mr. [Batty] Robinson Master who was severely wounded and Lieuts Mercer and Davis [David Davies] of the Royal Marines the latter of whom was also severly wounded. To Capt Jno Marshall RN who was a passenger I am particular]y obliged to for his exertions and advice throughout the action. To Lieutt Aplin who was on the Main Deck and Lieutt Sanders who commanded on the Forecastle, I also return my thanks. I cannot but notice the good conduct of the Mates, & Midshipmen. many of whom are killed & the greater part wounded. To Mr T. C. [Thomas Cooke] Jones Surgeon and his Assistants every praise is due for their unwearied assiduity in the care of the wounded. Lieutt General [Thomas] Hislop, Major Walker and Captain [J. T.] Wood of his Staff the latter of whom was severly wounded were solicitous to assist & remain on the quarter Deck I cannot conclude this letter without expressing my grateful acknowledgement thus publicly for the generous treatment Captain Lambert and his Officers have experienced from our Gallant Enemy Commodore Bainbridge and his Officers. I have the honor to be [&c.]

W [H] D Chads, 1st Lieut
of His Majestys late Ship Java


To John Wilson Croker Esquire
Secretary
Admiralty.

PS. The Constitution has also suffered severly, both in her rigging and men having her Fore and Mizen masts, main topmast, both main topsailyards, Spanker boom, Gaff & trysail mast badly shot, and the greatest part of the standing rigging very much damaged with ten men killed. The Commodore, 5 Lieuts and 46 men wounded four of whom are since dead.

Source: British Public Record Office, Admiralty 1/5435
 

Elijah

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After spending much of 1813 in dry dock for an overhaul, and most of 1814 blockaded in Boston by a squadron of English warships, Constitution was once again out on patrol in 1815. This time she was on the other side of the Atlantic off the coast of Africa. On 20 February 1815, a sail was sighted off the larboard bow, and then another one to the west. Captain Charles Stewart, the latest man to command the frigate, ordered the ship to tack toward the unknown vessels. Constitution had found two British men-of-war, HMS Cyane and HMS Levant.

The battle between these three vessels is described here in Captain Stewart's official report of the engagement and then in a excerpt from the personal journal of A. Y. Humphreys, Constitution's chaplain. In this duel, "Old Ironsides" proved more than a match for the English vessels. Cyane and Levant took care not to engage the American singly, but before the day was over both struck their colors and surrendered to the American. In fact, the peace treaty between England and the United States had been ratified by the Senate three days earlier, but because of slow communications Constitution did not learn of the cessation of hostilities until 28 April 1815.





Minutes of Action between the U.S. Frigate Constitution
and H.M. Ships Cyane and Levant, 20 February 1815

Commences with light breezes from the E and cloudy weather. At 1 discovered a sail two points on the larboard bow--hauled up and made sail in chace--At 1/2 past 1 made the Sail to be a Ship's at 3/4 past 1 discovered another Sail ahead--made them out at 2p.m. to be both Ships, standing closehauled, with their their Starboard tacks on board. At 4 p.m. the weathermost ship made signals and bore up for her consort, then about ten miles to the leeward. --We bore up after her, and set lower topmast, top gallant, and royal studding sails in chace--At 1/2 past 4 carried away our main royal mast--took in the Sails and got another prepared. At 5 p.m. commenced firing on the chace from our larboard bow guns--our shot falling short, ceased firing--At 1/2 past 5, finding it impossible to prevent their junction, cleared ship for action, then about 4 miles from the two ships--At 40 minutes after 5, they passed within hail of each other, and hauled by the wind on the starboard tack, hauled up their courses and prepared to receive us--At 45 minutes past 5, they made all sail close hauled by the wind, in hopes of getting to windward of us.--At 55 minutes past 5, finding themselves disappointed in their object, and we were closing with them fast, they shortened sail and formed on a line of wind, about half a cableslength from each other. At 6 p.m. having them under the command of our battery, hoisted our colours, which was answered by both ships hoisting English Ensigns. At 5 minutes past 6, ranged up on the Starboard side of the Sternmost Ship, about 200 yards distant, and commenced action by broadsides, both ships returning fire with great spirit for about 12 minutes, then the fire of the enemy beginning to slacken, and the great column of smoke collected under our lee, induced us to cease our fire to ascertain their positions and conditions. --in about 3 minutes, the smoke clearing away, we found ourselves abreast of their headmost ship, the sternmost ship luffing up for our larboard quarter--we poured a broadside into the headmost ship, and then braced aback our Main and Mizen Topsails, and backed astern under the cover of smoke, abreast the stern most ship, when action was continued with spirit and considerable effect until 35 minutes past 6, when the enemy's fire again slackened, and we discovered the headmost bearing up-filled our topsails-shot ahead, and gave her two stern rakes--we then discovered the sternmost ship nearing also-- wore ship immediately after her, and gave her a stern rake, she luffing too on our Starboard bows, and giving us her larboard broadside. We ranged up on the larboard quarter, within hail, and was about to give her our starboard broadside when she struck her colours, fired a lee gun, and yielded. At 20 minutes past 6, took possession of H.M. Ship Cyane, Captain Gordon Falcon, mounting 34 guns At 8 p.m. filled away after her consort, which was still in sight to leeward -- at 1/2 past 8 found her standing towards us, with her Starboard tacks closehauled, with top-gallant set, and colours flying-- at 20 minutes past 8, ranged close along to windward of her, on opposite tacks, and exchanged broadsides--wore immediately under her stern and raked her with a broadside, she then crowded all sail and endeavoured to escape by running--hauled on board our Tacks, Let Spanker and Flying jib in chace--and 1/2 past 9 commenced firing on her from our starboard bow chaser. --gave her several shot which cut her spars and rigging considerably--at 10 p.m. finding they could not escape, fired a gun, struck her colours and yielded. We immediately took possession of H.M. Ship Levant, Honorable Captain George Douglas, mounting 21 guns. At 1 a.m. the damages of our rigging was repaired, sails and the ship in fighting condition.

Source: Enclosure in Captain Stephen Decatur to Secretary of the Navy Benjamin Crowninshield, dated May 1814, National Archives, Record Group 45, Captain's Letters Sent, 1815, Vol. 3, No. 93.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Excerpts from the journal of A.Y. Humphreys, Chaplain, USS Constitution,
describing the encounter with H.M. Ships Cyane and Levant, 20 February 1815

Throughout the night standing to the northward and westward under short sail on the starboard tack continuing on this tack without seeing any thing untill 1h 10m. p.m. on Monday when a sail was cried from the mast head as being on the weather bow: hauled up for her under all sail, shortly after another sail was descried on the lee bow and word from aloft that the ship to windward had bore up for us. As we were now in the direct track for craft bound from the Mediterranean to Madeira &c felt assured that none but men of war would manoeuvre in this way and were not mistaken. At 2:30 p.m. the ship standing for us displayed signals which not being answered she squared away to the westward to join her consort setting all studding sails and making a great display of bunting, which she enforced with a number of guns. Set every rag in chase, the wind rather lulling. At a few minutes before three commenced firing from the forward guns on gun deck, the shot falling short ceased firing; at 3:15 opened again from the forward guns the shot just reaching. At 3:45 carried away the main royal mast which enabled the chase to distance our fire. Set Carpenters to work to make a new royal mast which they completed about 5. At 5:30 the breeze freshening a little. The ship to leeward tacking to the Southward under all sail. At 6 the weather ship passed under the stern of the other and spoke with her took in light sails and both of them hauled up their mainsails and hauled too on the starboard tack in line. At 6:10 ranged ahead of the sternmost which we found to be a frigate built ship, bringing her on the quarter and her consort on the bow distant about two hundred yards, and opened our broadsides which was returned with great quickness and spirit and some degree of precision; continued exchanging broadsides until the whole were enveloped in smoke upon the clearing away of which perceived we had got abreast of the headmost ship, manned both sides in case it should be necessary to ware ship, and backed the main and mizen topsails and dropped into our first station, the ship on the bow backing her topsails also; broke the men off from the starboard battery and renewed the action from the larboard; after a few broadsides the ship on the bow perceived the error she had committed in getting stern board, & filled away with the intention of tacking athwart our bow, the ship on the quarter at the same moment falling off perfectly unmanageable; filled away in pursuit of the former and compelled him to put his helm up at about one hundred yards distant pouring several raking broadsides into him. He made all sail before the wind which we did not think proper to reduce knowing his crippled situation would enable us to overhaul him after securing his consort, wore sound and ranged alongside the latter when she hoisted a light and fired a gun to leeward and upon being hailed to that effect replied she had surrendered. Sent a boat on board and took possession of His Majesty's Ship Cyane Capt Gordon Falcon mounting 34 guns 32 pound carronades -- having received her Commander and officers on board with the greater part of her crew ordered her to keep company and filled away in chase of the other gentleman and in short time discovered him on the weather bow standing for us. In a few minutes he luffed to and fired his broadsides which was duly repaid, he then tacked ship and made all sail by the wind receiving a rake from our starboard broadside; set the Royals and soon gained his wake and opened upon him from the gun deck chase guns with great effect and in a few minutes after she hoisted a light and hove too. Ranged alongside, sent a boat on board and took possession of His Majesty's Ship Levant Capt. Douglass, of 18 32 pound carronades and 2 long 12 pounders. The whole of this business occupied about three hours, only forty-five minutes of which were taken up in compelling both ships to yield to our superior gunnery. The Cyane when she struck had five feet water in the hold and otherwise very much cut up, her masts tottering and nothing but the smoothness of the sea preventing them from going over the side. The Levant in a condition somewhat better, her spars having generally escaped, but her hull pretty well drilled and her deck a perfect slaughter house, in fact so hardly had she been dealt with on deck that her men by the acknowledgement of their Officers twice went below from their quarters. The Constitution lost not a spar but the fore top gallant yard, and was in better order if possible to have fought a similar action than when the late one commenced. The loss on the part of the two ships was upwards of forty killed and nearly double that number wounded, the Constitution had four killed and eleven wounded. Two or three hours sufficed to place the three ships in a condition to make sail and by four o'clock on the morning of Sunday Feby. 21st they were standing to the Westward.

Source: Indiana University, Lily Library, A.Y. Humphreys journal, Humphreys Manuscripts
 

Zagys

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Originally posted by Pokka
But still, I can definately say that USA is not a great power in 1830s. It is just a nation with lots of rural area! At that time, there are bunch of stronger nations, UK, France, Prussia, Russia, Austria,
Perhaps.

Originally posted by Pokka
Ottoman, Netherlands, even Mexico, Argentina, Sweden, Spain, Belgium are much better than US. :wacko:
Bullcrap.
 

Pokka

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Well someone posted some satistics on the page 5 of this thread. If ya cannot accept it due to ur umm..."Patriotism?"...then forget about it. :p
 

Elijah

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Of course, despite the Constitution class frigates being (arguably)individually superior to any other ship in the world, the US was sorely outnumbered by the British navy and was easily overmatched. However, that fact convinced both the American public and its elected officials that the US needed a stronger navy and "kept small squadrons in the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, off the west African coast, and in the Pacific. While its ships supported commerce and diplomacy in the far flung corners of the world and suppressed piracy in the Caribbean and the slave trade off the African coast, as before, the navy was limited to support of the merchant class, and it was still not assigned any broad national roles during peacetime." (The Navy: The Continental Period, 1775-1890 by Michael A. Palmer).
 

Zagys

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Originally posted by Pokka
Well someone posted some satistics on the page 5 of this thread. If ya cannot accept it due to ur umm..."Patriotism?"...then forget about it. :p
Certainly the US was weaker than most of the great powers of Europe, but where are the statistics showing the US as weaker than all those other small or poor nations you mentioned? What does patriotism have to do with this anyway, I'm not even American?
 

Tim O

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Standing army statistics mean nothing. The U.S. had a standing army of 16,000 in 1860. Yet in the Civil War (1861-65). 2,100,000 men served in the Union armed forces and she built and manned a navy larger than Great Britain's (although not as powerfull, since many ships were designed for river travel or coastal blockade enforcement). And another 800,000 men served in the Confederate armed forces.
 

Dark Knight

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Originally posted by Pokka
But still, I can definately say that USA is not a great power in 1830s. It is just a nation with lots of rural area! At that time, there are bunch of stronger nations, UK, France, Prussia, Russia, Austria, Ottoman, Netherlands, even Mexico, Argentina, Sweden, Spain, Belgium are much better than US. :wacko:
THe US had a population of over 14 million by the start of the Victoria era. Argentina, a country similar to the US in many ways and prosperous during the Victoria era, was not any better off than the US and had a population of about 0.9 million in 1836. Mexico had a population of about 7 million, was poorer, and would suffer a grievous defeat in a war against the US only a decade later. Sweden had a population of 3 million (counting Norway adds not much over 1 million) and little industry. Spain had a smaller population than the US, was falling behind economically, and was wracked by internal strife throughout the Victoria era. The Netherlands had a population of 3 million and was late to industrialise; although it did possess extensive colonies (though much of Indonesia didn't come under Dutch control until later in the century), it had little military power. Belgium, while it was second in industrialising, had a population of about 1/4th that of the US.
 

Elijah

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THanks for the stats Dark Knight :) Now if one wanted to argue that there were only 6 great powers at that time (UK, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia, OE) or even 5 (-OE), I'd likely not disagree. But if the decision is to grant 8 nations that status, then the US I think sneaks in at 7 or 8.
 

Zagys

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Originally posted by Elijah
THanks for the stats Dark Knight :) Now if one wanted to argue that there were only 6 great powers at that time (UK, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia, OE) or even 5 (-OE), I'd likely not disagree. But if the decision is to grant 8 nations that status, then the US I think sneaks in at 7 or 8.
I think the US was stronger than the OE in 1830.