Whiteman Penalty

[Thistletooth]

I know, as an "old gamer", I really should know this, but I'm only now getting around to a serious Pagan American game.

What are the exact requirements to get rid of this penalty? I remember it being something like:

- Knowing a certain number of European nations
- Having fought three or so wars against European nations

But those are vague, if not inaccurate. So what must my Incas do?

 

[Duke of Wellington]

Sending six merchants to European COTs is enough to remove it.

 

[Thistletooth]

Sending six merchants to European COTs is enough to remove it.

Well that sounds simple. Now where's a Portuguese when I need one....

 

[Wal]

Sending six merchants to European COTs is enough to remove it.

Sending isn't enough. And it's 5 not six. Whiteman ranges from 0 to 5 and at 5 it's nullified. A succesful sent merchant to an european CoT increases the whiteman modifier by 1. The same with DoWing europeans. For each such "event" the whiteman increases with 1 to a maximum of 5 when it's gone.

For a side note: If you have "saved" up a lot of investment in technology, it's best to try and remove the whiteman penalty all the way in the same month. That way you won't loose investment. This way you can gain several advances at once

 

[unmerged(4344)]

Right, you need actual placement, not just sending them. And you definitely do want to remove the penalty all at once, ideally in the same month in which you remove your isolation penalty.

I started a recent game w/ Chimu, where I got some real luck. In about 1510, the Spanish TPed Cartagena. So I met them, and instantly sent a state gift. Relations in the 80s, IIRC. They were their alliance leader, so I joined them. Then, luck: not too much later, they DoWed France. So I got invited, and DoWed as well. Next month, I have diplomatic relations with France: I can see Ile de France, including CoT! So I quickly made peace w/ France, and sent them a state gift. So, boom, +200 relations.

Meanwhile, I've examined my tech. Through the 1400s, I've invested equally in all four techs, which are all more or less out of reach (cost 30000 or so for infra 2). By this time I've got about 15000 in each tech, more or less. So I watch the CoT in Ile de France... there's an empty slot. I send to it. Success! OK, one whiteman down; tech cost dropped about 5000. So I know I can get two more whitemen off without hitting the tech level. So I watch... two more empty slots later, my whiteman is up to 3, and my tech bars are almost complete. I wait for one more empty slot... it takes about 8 months.

The one thing that's tricky here is that merchants take a month to arrive. So, in the month I see the slot empty, I send all 5 merchants that I have. (I would have sent 6 if I had had all 6.) Then the next month, I wait to see how they did. So long as even one succeeds, then my tech is going to go up, and I want to make that count. If none succeed, though, then I don't want to swap maps so as to try again at the next empty slot. Ideally, two would succeed. In my case, two did (the first got the empty slot, and one of the others bumped a European). As soon as I saw the result, I swapped maps with the French, negating the isolation penalty at the same time as whiteman, which meant I did not waste any of my tech investment.

 

[unmerged(4344)]

BTW, how do you know when your whiteman penalty is fully removed? It's fully removed when you can build ships and recruit cavalry. At the intermediate levels, there's no way to find it out in-game. The only way is to save the game, then examine the savefile for it.

 

[kolmy]

BTW, how do you know when your whiteman penalty is fully removed? It's fully removed when you can build ships and recruit cavalry. At the intermediate levels, there's no way to find it out in-game. The only way is to save the game, then examine the savefile for it.

Would be a nice input in EU3

 

[unmerged(3931)]

I also have a Chimu game; see my signature.

There are two penalties that are part of the "no contact modifier". One penalty is the "whiteman penalty". The other penalty is the "isolation penalty". The whiteman penalty is removed when you have either had the penalty removed by sending merchants or have engaged in as many as five wars against Europeans. You can do a combination of sending merchants to European CoTs and engaging in European wars. At higher difficulty, when you can build ships and cavalry, the whiteman penalty is removed.

The isolation penalty is removed when you know of 19 foreign capitals. You can tell how many capitals you know of by examining how many nations you have relations with. There are 10 nations per page in the relations window. The knowledge of new capitals does not actually affect your tech costs until a new war is declared somewhere in the game (between any two nations, even those you do not know of).

To remove the whiteman and and isolation penalties in one month you might:

Join an alliance where some nations may dishonor your alliance.
You may need to send insults so your alliance leader will dishonor.
Reach at least +2 stability and save up six diplomats and six merchants.
Wait until the last day of a month and pause.
Successfully exchange European maps.
Send six merchants to fill as many empty European slots as possible.
Unpause the game.
The isolation penalty is not removed until a DoW in the game
(earliest is the next day which is the first of the month).
Watch your tech costs to tell if isolation penalty is removed.
Pause once more on the last day of the next month.
Some merchants succeed and others fail.
Declare war on at least one European (unless your penalties are both gone).
Invite allies.
DoW allies that dishonor so you have CB and do not lose so much stability.
Keep making DoWs until there is no more whiteman penalty (you are able to build cavalry). You may need to make DoWs without CB, so stability is important.

 

[unmerged(4344)]

The knowledge of new capitals does not actually affect your tech costs until a new war is declared somewhere in the game (between any two nations, even those you do not know of).

Ah, I did not know that. I wonder if I was lucky. (I mothballed the game pending inspiration to attempt WC, which is lacking.) Of course I still need to get a conquistador in my game.

Tom I've been reading your AAR, which is part of what inspired me to start that game. My feeling on 1.09 badboy is that it's best to have very low Centralization during WC, in order to keep down the max RR, so you can stay at war all the time. There's an upside: you can recruit all you want, since you'll be at the max RR most of the time. Downside is you spend a lot more time fighting rebels. But there's a big difference between 6 RR in your core, and 10 RR, not to mention 12 and 20 for wrong-religion wrong-culture.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Oh yes, the fact that the isolation penalty is not removed until there is a DoW in the game is the reason that map exchanges on the last day of a month cannot have an affect on tech costs until the next day (next month). There must be a DoW, whether you do it or another nation does it.

Also, the 12 RR would be preferable to full Centralization. I can handle 12 war exhaustion revolt risk. When it gets much higher, I start having trouble with rebellions.

 

[unmerged(4344)]

It seems like the optimal course then would be to send merchants (on a 1st), then wait to see how they go. On the first of the next month, if you get no success, then you do nothing. You wait to get more merchants to send all together. Assuming you get one or more successes, such that your whiteman will drop enough to cause you to level on a tech, only then do you swap maps. Then you wait patiently during the month hoping to see a war break out. On the 30th, if you've not seen one yet, only then do you DoW.

Of course you should DoW regardless, if your whiteman still is not maxxed after the merchant-sending.

 

[unmerged(62543)]

It seems like the optimal course then would be to send merchants (on a 1st), then wait to see how they go. On the first of the next month, if you get no success, then you do nothing. You wait to get more merchants to send all together. Assuming you get one or more successes, such that your whiteman will drop enough to cause you to level on a tech, only then do you swap maps. Then you wait patiently during the month hoping to see a war break out. On the 30th, if you've not seen one yet, only then do you DoW.

Of course you should DoW regardless, if your whiteman still is not maxxed after the merchant-sending.

What is a whiteman penalty?

 

[unmerged(3931)]

It seems like the optimal course then would be to send merchants (on a 1st), then wait to see how they go. On the first of the next month, if you get no success, then you do nothing. You wait to get more merchants to send all together. Assuming you get one or more successes, such that your whiteman will drop enough to cause you to level on a tech, only then do you swap maps. Then you wait patiently during the month hoping to see a war break out. On the 30th, if you've not seen one yet, only then do you DoW.

Of course you should DoW regardless, if your whiteman still is not maxxed after the merchant-sending.

No, send the merchants on the 30th when you exchange maps. That way you know of more CoTs to send merchants to. See the list of operations I wrote above to remove penalties in the same month. Exchanging maps on the last day of the month keeps the isolation penalty from being removed until the next month.

The whiteman penalty is a penalty to tech costs for American nations. It makes tech costs way more expensive.