Which religion is best? - Discussion

[AwesomeKeith]

This discussion is purely about game mechanics. To debate theology, go elsewhere.

I like to play Sunni Islamic characters because I'm an Empire builder, and Islam's CBs and million children allow me to spread my Empire and dynasty across the world, while the fights over who is truly the Caliph/Sultan/Shah/Emir always make for an interesting internal affair. It's also spread across some of the most interesting and varied areas; Iberia, Persia, the Steppes, Arabia, North Africa, all these different choices make it easy to get a lot out of Islam.

 

[Moarice]

Zoroastrianism.
I mean, who doesn't want to bang their sister?

 

[Furion Matsuya]

Zoroastrianism.
I mean, who doesn't want to bang their sister?

 

[Rubidium]

Clearly Messalian. You can marry your brothers to other Christians for alliances AND marry your sister for yourself.

More seriously, Conclave has made the marriage game more important (by introducing NAPs as a tool to control factions, and by eliminating the "same last name=automatic alliance" factor). So Muslim polygamy gets a bonus (more kids and more wives=more NAPs), while isolated religions with few marriage partners (e.g. Jews) get a nerf.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

The reformed Pagan religions are usually pretty nice.

The Orthodox Pentarchy is also fun.

And the Indian religions.

 

[Furion Matsuya]

The reformed Pagan religions are usually pretty nice.

The Orthodox Pentarchy is also fun.

And the Indian religions.

I'd agree but many of the reformed pagans are really feature bare leaving the player to have to mentally fill things in for role playing etc.

 

[Kilij]

This discussion is purely about game mechanics. To debate theology, go elsewhere.

I like to play Sunni Islamic characters because I'm an Empire builder, and Islam's CBs and million children allow me to spread my Empire and dynasty across the world, while the fights over who is truly the Caliph/Sultan/Shah/Emir always make for an interesting internal affair. It's also spread across some of the most interesting and varied areas; Iberia, Persia, the Steppes, Arabia, North Africa, all these different choices make it easy to get a lot out of Islam.

So is this about best as in preferred to play as or actually the best? Also I'd say it varies on outside factors such as the year, culture, or your government type. While Islam is certainly the best for tribals, Norse would be best for Merchant Republics. Reformed Paganism is generally really good for feudals, who couldn't raid otherwise(except Altaics or Hindus) and get most of the benefits of the other organized religions. Indians religions start with their holy order regardless of start date, so that makes them a clear contender for top early start religions, yet they may be outmatched in the crusading period. Jainghis Khan is easily the most OP culture religion combo, but assuming you don't want to limit yourself to Mongols or Khitan, it may not be what you're looking for in this discussion. As for Christians, Catholic is definitely the best if your an empire, then you can just vassalize the Pope, but if you're a King and will be a long time, a brand of Christianity with Autocephaly is better if you don't wish to bother with "Paypal" Mechanics.

As for preferences, if you let other factors, such as aesthetics come into play, while Islam and the Indian religions are awesome and get really good dlc music packs, being a non-Arabic, non-Iranian, non-Indian, or non-Turkish follower means you don't get to brand your nation and armies with your awesome dynasty logo you just edited, instead you get some random and uninspiring CoA that anyone with even a slight understanding of colour theory could do better, or worse you get a Buddhist wheel for your newly converted Hindu realm.

But for the most part, Islam is certainly a primary contender for the best, I must also add, if the wiki and the patchlogs are right and Yezidi has excommunication, it could easily rank the best since how easy it is to do purges with excommunications.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Suomenusko, by Perkele!

 

[icedt729]

I like Buddhism because the combination of concubinage and heir-nomination means you can end up with an unbroken line of Strong Genius rulers if you play the genetics game well, but unfortunately they're lousy at expansion. Hinduism is solid with the early Holy Order, morale buff, patron deities and raiding but they lack any inheritance/realm management perks. Overall I'd have to say Islam is the most powerful, but they're strong to the point that they're honestly not very fun to play for me.

 

[Lord Finnish]

Messalianism because it's the single most outlandish religion in the game. Low MA will hurt you bad tho unless you're in middle east.

 

[Narvait]

Tribal Islam is up to the point of being overpowered.
Buddhism is nice for realm management but not big for expansions.
Defensive pagans motherland bonus is really nice, I had some great victories on Romuva land (Alps )) ) vs multiple Crusades and Muslim Invasions sometimes simultaneously.
Have not tried the cashing of Pope, heard that is also not Bad

 

[Brodacious]

Generic Paganism and Hellenism, obivously.

 

[crowdemon]

Generic Paganism and Hellenism, obivously.

Don't forget Norse, obvious reasons.

 

[Ragingnorman]

Top tier for me are Catholicism/Fraticelli and the Muslim ones.

Muslims can have more sons (more NAPs), more traits for positive vassal opinion and can expand faster

Catholics and Fraticelli have an easier time controlling the Pope (even more true if you start as a count/duke), better income and use their piety in a more efficient way even if they don't expand as fast as muslims, they probably will have more vassals that hate them than a muslim but the excommunication is a weapon even more useful than internal NAPs and traits (because you can use it in a an emergency).

 

[indika_tates]

Jainism without doubt. Pretty useless outside india but with gavelkind sucession you can have a demesene of twenty counties. And you can make a chain of your demesne inside the silk trade route.

 

[Secret Master]

When I ran a Muslim realm with a capital in Marrekech, and put 1 castle, 1 city, and 5 mosques there, I felt like I was the most powerful guy in the world. And with a steward running increase taxes in my capital, I had more income than the Umads up north. In 800 CE. With bad technology.

Proper use of Islam's mechanics will make you incredibly powerful. The AI never makes good use of Islam's perks, but humans can power game the crap out of it. For maximum fun, you can run a Muslim realm with a culture that allows raiding.

Islam is balanced weirdly in CK2. The AI is fairly well balanced with Islam. I see the Umads and Blobassids disintegrate enough of the time to convince me that Islam is fine under AI control. One decadence revolt won't kill a big Muslim blob, but decadence revolts and factions and adventures will get most of them in the end, even if it takes a couple of centuries. But humans can stay at 0% decadence more or less 95% of the time, boosting income and morale while gaming Open Succession to get the best possible heir every time. Sure, you eat tyranny when imprisoning decade sons who are not worth the piety cost of shaping up, but with a properly built council, the tyranny isn't that big of a problem.

I tend to play Islamic states only as bizarre heresies for an additional challenge. Being Sunni is too close to an "I Win" button at most start dates.

"The Catholics of Western Europe are planning a Crusade against us. What will we do, Caliph?"

"Well, I've got 3000 piety from holding upgraded mosques and my holy wars, so why not run a few invasions. I figure we can take out France, Germany, and Italy before I need to take a break for more piety."

"But what of the pagans?"

"Do we have military organization 4?"

"No."

"Then why are you bothering me? Go research military organization 4, and we can curb stomp the idiot pagans up north."

"But if they convert..."

"Who gives a flying fart if they convert? I have caliphal subjugation. I'm going to go all Samuel L Jackson on their posteriors no matter what religion they are. I'm pretty sure I read that in a hadith somewhere that I shall strike down upon them with great vengeance and furious anger."

"And India?"

"Look, even our historical counterparts could conquer India. You think a bunch of pacifist Jains with uber demesnes are going to stop me? We'll just steal the technology from the Buddhists. And the Hindus? Their holy order cannot help them now."

 

[Tapio]

For conquests Islam is way too OP if you're not a nomad. You want to play Sunni, because you can either get free learning or piety for even faster conquests. Strangely there are no upsides to Shia or Ibadi.

Buddhist is great if you're a builder type who wants control over succession and fast tech.

 

[Kilij]

For conquests Islam is way too OP if you're not a nomad. You want to play Sunni, because you can either get free learning or piety for even faster conquests. Strangely there are no upsides to Shia or Ibadi.

Buddhist is great if you're a builder type who wants control over succession and fast tech.

I'm still mad how badly Shia got shafted over the development of the game. First, they were better, then they just kept giving Sunni more perks, a holy order they shouldn't have(Bektashi are their own thing, but are closer to Shia, hence why they used to be Shia heresy in-game), then they gave Sunni schools of thought without giving other Muslims an equivalent or other mechanic, and now Shia are the only religion that doesn't have a dynamic condition to form their holy order, they MUST wait for 1089 while other religions whose holy orders wouldn't otherwise spawn until the 13th century can just hand an infidel to one of the trigger counties once they get crusades/jihads, so prepare to have conquered the whole map by the time the Hashashin spawn if you play 769 or 867. Surprised they don't just make all other forms of Islam Sunni heresies at this point...

However, fleshing out the Jewish and Zoroastrian "heresies" should still probably be a higher priority. In fact I was really surprised they didn't do anything with Manichaeanism in HL.

 

[gdj]

Orthodox. You have the pentarchy system, a patriarch if you are king tier or higher, no pope who steals your money, no overpowered crusades and the like etc. I always found piety to be very uselful here, excommunication is a very powerful tool if you use it strategically.

 

[Tapio]

I'm still mad how badly Shia got shafted over the development of the game.

In fact I was really surprised they didn't do anything with Manichaeanism in HL.

I completely agree with you here both on the Shia and Manicheanism and felt the same when HL came out.