Hi Manwe…good to hear from you again. I wondered about being a Republic; I thought someone had said (or I read elsewhere) that Florence could become a monarchy, so I was kind of going to do that to form Italy. Isn’t Italy only formed as a kingdom?
Which Italian state to start with
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Oh didn't know those missions were tied to the Emperor DLC. Sorry then forget what I said.
Florence is still fun and I would recommend playing it though.
Florence is still fun and I would recommend playing it though.
Depends on what you want to do,
Venice: Early game trade, war with ottomans and no intervention into lombardy before the shadow kingdom event (Italy leaves HRE),
Milan : very strong, focus on north italy, easy access to strong allies, quickest way to form italy (can be done as soon as tech 10 hits you should be having all required provinces by then
Florence : Chill focus on Pope and Naples with some easy targets in toscany and ferrare, chill option IMHO,
Genoa : essentially the same as venice but weaker and more of a focus on the black sea,
Naples : Easy access to north africa, Greece and can seize most if not all of sicily with the first few years, it's mostly a maratime nation which can speed towards mamluks and Ottomans early on.
Savoy : can't help you there I have yet to try it, I hear that Piedmont sardaigne has access to Admin efficiency through their Mission tree so that's a big boost,
At the end of the day I would say if you want to unify italy early on go for Milan Florence and maybe Savoy,
If you want to go hard and wide on medditeranea go for Venice/Naples/Genoa.
Papal state can't form Italy, however I did a run to form "Kingdom of god" and I remember it was a lot of fun.
Achievement wise on the top of my head I know that Papal state, Venice, Naples, florence have at least one (outside of the achievement to form italy obv)
Last one that is quite interesting ironically is Provence you can core all of naples if u rush mission tree, there's quite a bit of RNG but you can all quickly be the biggest power in medditeranea.
Venice: Early game trade, war with ottomans and no intervention into lombardy before the shadow kingdom event (Italy leaves HRE),
Milan : very strong, focus on north italy, easy access to strong allies, quickest way to form italy (can be done as soon as tech 10 hits you should be having all required provinces by then
Florence : Chill focus on Pope and Naples with some easy targets in toscany and ferrare, chill option IMHO,
Genoa : essentially the same as venice but weaker and more of a focus on the black sea,
Naples : Easy access to north africa, Greece and can seize most if not all of sicily with the first few years, it's mostly a maratime nation which can speed towards mamluks and Ottomans early on.
Savoy : can't help you there I have yet to try it, I hear that Piedmont sardaigne has access to Admin efficiency through their Mission tree so that's a big boost,
At the end of the day I would say if you want to unify italy early on go for Milan Florence and maybe Savoy,
If you want to go hard and wide on medditeranea go for Venice/Naples/Genoa.
Papal state can't form Italy, however I did a run to form "Kingdom of god" and I remember it was a lot of fun.
Achievement wise on the top of my head I know that Papal state, Venice, Naples, florence have at least one (outside of the achievement to form italy obv)
Last one that is quite interesting ironically is Provence you can core all of naples if u rush mission tree, there's quite a bit of RNG but you can all quickly be the biggest power in medditeranea.
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Regarding Florence monarchy: Originally when you formed Tuscany it would change you into a monarchy, this has been changed in 1.30 though. You will stay a republic. They have now introduced a one of the last missions in the Florence/Tuscany mission tree (with the DLC) which gives the option to turn into a monarchy though. However, you can form Italy as a republic, there is no problem with that. Florence and some other Italian nations have the "Signoria" government reform, which besides some other aspects give them access to Royal Marriages making diplomacy easier compared to other republics.
I’m going to. And I did pick up Emperor, so that mission is there. But I still don’t see where to “set the focus to diplo” that you said earlier. Did you mean within the estates tab where I can give the Burghers the “Land of Commerce” bonus which does give +1 to monthly diplo? If so, that takes away crownland, which then brings on the negatives in 3-4 areas. Wouldn’t it be better to hire the +3 advisor, and then replace him when allowed to reduce the cost?
Or is there another button or choice to make for that?
or…well, when I look at the leader, his stats are 6-5-5…so, I would need to find whatever +1 you mean, and then hire a +3 advisor to hit the 12.
Or, Am I just not understanding?
I think this is what they were talking about:
Monarch power - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki
According to the wiki requires common sense or the republic dlc.
On the advisor Tab there is an option called national focus which makes it so that the monarch ressource picked gets +2 points while other ressources gets -1 each (null sum)
Oh many sorry I didn't know that that's a DLC feature.
Yes if you get a ruler with 6 in diplomacy and hire a lvl 3 advisor you should be able to get the mission done. The tactic is then not going to work that way of course. But with the new break alliance feature maybe you can circumvent these alliances anyway.
Thank you. You also Blackbirdgriffi....I did have Common Sense...but I couldn't see those little buttons. I was looking for a more obvious option, so since it was on sale for $2.50, I just went ahead and bought res Publica. Only then did I see the buttons...and upon then going back and turning RP to disabled, and then seeing it still there.... sigh.I think this is what they were talking about:
Monarch power - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki
eu4.paradoxwikis.com
According to the wiki requires common sense or the republic dlc.
All good. And maybe since Florence is a Republic (and can't easily be changed???), RP will be of use. No worries, though, Lykus...I had thought getting a few more DLC might be of use.And Manwe, in the Florence mission tree (I'm wondering if it changes if it does become Tuscany), there is a mission reward for becoming a kingdom...but I don't see anything obvious to do that. But maybe that means there is a moment, if I take certain provinces, to do so anyway?
I guess, in any case, before I start to play I need to do a bit more study on playing a Republic. ????
Thanks everyone for your patience and help. I don't mean to be slow on the uptake. Like, it would have been nice for Paradox to have the "national focus" buttons a little more obvious. Yes, I know...I probably should just click on all the random buttons more to see what it does, but, hey devs, how about an actual label?
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Well the EU4 UI is quite complex and a lot of things are not obvious, IMO the national focus is quite an easy one, but if you know something its hard to judge how it is to discover it at first.
The missions for Florence & Tuscany are the same: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Tuscan_missions
Kingdom refers to the government rank (Duchy, Kingdom, Empire), which has nothing to do with your government form (you can be a Republic of Duchy, Kingdom or Empire rank). The higher the rank the more benefits you get. You need 300 / 1000 dev to upgrade (requires Common Sense), I guess without Common Sense the requirement is having 300 development.
The mission I was referring to was "Make Haste Slowly", but it has quite steep requirements (high crownloand, low estate influence). Also you lose that mission if you form Italy before.
Republics in a nutshell: You have more control over your rulers, but you also need to deal with that aspect. Elections are held at intervals that depend on the exact type of the Republic. Most have 4 years, Signoria has 12 years. At an election you get 3 quite bad candidates, which have skill 4 in Admin / Diplo / Military respectively and only 1 in the other two, but when you reelect your current ruler they get +1 to all skills, so if you can reelect often enough you get glorious 6 6 6 rulers. The problem is if you reelect it costs your republican tradition and it recovers only slowly. So you can't reelect all the time, but need to choose whether you can afford it (best is when you have quite a young ruler, so he lives through many elections).
Signoria as Florence is special, the long election period makes reelection much weaker, but you always get an option to choose a new ruler of your current rulers family (so Medici at the start), that costs you a little bit of Republican tradition. These tend to have quite good skills already and reelecting them only once or twice can already make them very good.
One disadvantage of Republics in the later game is that you can't get as much absolutism with them as with monarchies.
The missions for Florence & Tuscany are the same: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Tuscan_missions
Kingdom refers to the government rank (Duchy, Kingdom, Empire), which has nothing to do with your government form (you can be a Republic of Duchy, Kingdom or Empire rank). The higher the rank the more benefits you get. You need 300 / 1000 dev to upgrade (requires Common Sense), I guess without Common Sense the requirement is having 300 development.
The mission I was referring to was "Make Haste Slowly", but it has quite steep requirements (high crownloand, low estate influence). Also you lose that mission if you form Italy before.
Republics in a nutshell: You have more control over your rulers, but you also need to deal with that aspect. Elections are held at intervals that depend on the exact type of the Republic. Most have 4 years, Signoria has 12 years. At an election you get 3 quite bad candidates, which have skill 4 in Admin / Diplo / Military respectively and only 1 in the other two, but when you reelect your current ruler they get +1 to all skills, so if you can reelect often enough you get glorious 6 6 6 rulers. The problem is if you reelect it costs your republican tradition and it recovers only slowly. So you can't reelect all the time, but need to choose whether you can afford it (best is when you have quite a young ruler, so he lives through many elections).
Signoria as Florence is special, the long election period makes reelection much weaker, but you always get an option to choose a new ruler of your current rulers family (so Medici at the start), that costs you a little bit of Republican tradition. These tend to have quite good skills already and reelecting them only once or twice can already make them very good.
One disadvantage of Republics in the later game is that you can't get as much absolutism with them as with monarchies.
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So, why is that a disadvantage? For context, for the Castile game, I never got even to mid-game, let alone late game. I had added too many DLCs and just wanted to get a clean start. And as noted, taking on a minor (whether a 3-province or one of the larger Italian states) could be above my ability right now. LOL. But, I saw elsewhere people talking about the absolutism, and I note that various choices (mostly with the estates??) where the negative is to absolutism.
So...why? Is there some change that happens due to government reforms? Is there some generalize need for more absolutism later in the game?
Absolutism is unlocked in the age of Absolutism ~1610. It increases administrative efficiency, which in turn decreases war score cost for provinces, AE and coring cost. There are other side benefits but that's the main reason people consider it really strong. Being a republic and having estate privileges both decrease the maximum amount of absolutism you can have.
The thing is, while absolutism is really important for advanced players who want to conquer huge amounts of land as fast as possible, it doesn't do that much to help you do the things you care about as a relative beginner: strengthening your economy, doing diplomacy, winning wars, advancing tech and ideas. It is always good to have (someone unintuitively, there are no direct downsides) and worth playing around with once it unlocks. But typically if the absolutism penalty from being a republic is holding you back you've already achieved most of your goals in the game, unless you want to conquer the world or something similar.
I might should ask this elsewhere, but since I'm still trying to learn and yet also play as a minor (Florence)...and this question involves Italy....
I see that Austria is called to every war involving the HRE. Makes sense. But, do they always come? I mean, as I'm trying to plan a war which is tricky already (or at least it seems so to me) due to the complicated Italian alliances, enemies and rivals, I don't think I could even remotely come close to defeating Austria.
Are they included in the war score determination? It would stink to successfully take out the land of my enemy only to discover that I can't conclude the peace deal because Austria is involved.
I see that Austria is called to every war involving the HRE. Makes sense. But, do they always come? I mean, as I'm trying to plan a war which is tricky already (or at least it seems so to me) due to the complicated Italian alliances, enemies and rivals, I don't think I could even remotely come close to defeating Austria.
Are they included in the war score determination? It would stink to successfully take out the land of my enemy only to discover that I can't conclude the peace deal because Austria is involved.
when you go for the declare war you can usually see the factors that go in favor for austria to join, when it's war vs the HRE from a non-hre member it's usually a high modifier, if it's a war between hre members and none of the hre members have austria as ally they won't join (except if u no CB, but No nb in the hre is a pretty risky ordeal anyway)
Right…with every HRE member, the check mark is greyed out meaning they are in the war regardless. But…are they going to send troops? In reading about the HRE, I thought I saw that for the player, if Emperor, they were called into every war with HRE members, but I couldnt tell if that meant you had the option, but might not actually contribute troops. I guess the best way to avoid their actual armies would be to do it when they were already at war.
But then are they automatically included in the war score tabulation?
Not necessarly, for exemple if you attack savoy as a non hre member and austria rivaled savoy austria won't join (same thing for prussia and bohemia for exemple), and there also won't join if they for exemple have a hungarian P.U and Ottoblob attacks them and siege most of them as the negative modifiers corresponding to Besieged provinces, low manpower and war exhaustion will outweight the positive modifiers,
The greyout box doesn't mean that they are forced to join but rather that they will be bo-belligerent meaning that they will also call their allies with the defensive war modifier to join (if you want to see wether said ally will join just click on the declare war on austria and check out the "tick" on it's AI to check their willingness to jump in the war that'll will indicate the full extent of you're opposing side) which is also something you want to check out if you can beat austria can you also beat their allies?
In terms of warscore contribution it's the same as a normal ally IIRC (don't quote me on that) but regardless given that you'll probably fighting a weaker nation than austria they will be a big part of the warscore indeed.
However using options to peace them out will cost the normal amount of warscore and AE (if it comes to that). in central italy beeing at war with emperor is bad as you can't easily blitz vienna and carpet siege a couple of provinces in order to peace them out quickly
Well, as some of you noted, I'm probably in over my head. I've now tried to play as Florence about 7 times. LOL The intricacies of the diplomatic situation as well as simply feeling as if the AI gets to operate with different rules confounds me. Perhaps the major problem is that I have been trying to do what I thought some of you said I could do with those first two missions. So, diplomatically I know I need to figure that out, both in getting the two allies and avoiding going to war with some massive confederation. Every time but once when I tried, every other nation refused to be my ally so there was simply no way possible to ally anyone within the first two days, as was suggested. So then I try to do things like a marriage or sending a diplomat to improve relations, but then even after the successful marriage, as you all know, then I can't get the alliance with that nation for another month. By the time a month has gone by, with improved relations, every other country is already allied or enemies. There have been a couple of times when the Papal States were close to being my friend, and I will send a diplomat to improve relations, and even though they are then happier a week or two later, the situation suddenly changes because they've befriended someone who I rivaled, or they are friends of a friend, or, as happened last night, suddenly they have too many relations---meaning, it sure feels like the AI gets a benefit situation to where all of their nations can actually ally while I am running around trying to get people happy.
Then, in one go where I thought I was okay, and then went to war with Sienna (who had two allies, but nothing major, or so I thought) my fleet got rolled by the combined alliance fleet, and even though I took the province finally, they would not give up the land (even though the war score was high enough) and I had no way to get over to one of their allies (Ragusa).
Then, in another go, I thought I would be more typical diplomatic style that I prefer, and I allied both Bologna and Sienna, and then raised relations in order to make the move to diplo-annex. But, as I found out, even though the diplomatic screen had given me the green check mark on the way to this moment, once they hit 190, suddenly it went to a red X saying that they were unimpressed with my military and thus would not become the vassal. I of course understand historically why a country wouldn't just give up their independence, but I sure wish the program would have told me that.
I kept trying, in that game, figuring to go for the very long approach, but along the way I allied also with Naples (seeking to get a stronger overall alliance), and then suddenly they went back to war with Aragon. I had been waiting, hoping to get enough favors (really do NOT like that system) to finally start a war with Lucca, then one minor near me, but with this change, I joined in, not wishing to take the prestige hit, and again my navy got rolled by Aragon (LOL) and two massive Aragonese armies started to conquer my lands. Sigh...this I might could try to rectify going back in time, but maybe this was just a clue that I was in over my head. I probably should have stayed out of it, leaving Naples to their fate, but I was already struggling to figure out how to raise up my prestige (wonder what I am missing there...it was consistently going down, not up), so....
Not really asking for advice, but just more telling you my tale of woe and probably try to figure out a better second country to play for myself. But I certainly don't understand how the AI could ally with everyone while I could not. And I feel like the strategy to get the higher level advisor to hit the mission, thus spending about 90% of the nation's starting money is unwise. If I did try it again, I would probably just wait for the first election and take the hit on republic tradition in order to let the leader get the +1 to Diplo and see if that did it.
Then, in one go where I thought I was okay, and then went to war with Sienna (who had two allies, but nothing major, or so I thought) my fleet got rolled by the combined alliance fleet, and even though I took the province finally, they would not give up the land (even though the war score was high enough) and I had no way to get over to one of their allies (Ragusa).
Then, in another go, I thought I would be more typical diplomatic style that I prefer, and I allied both Bologna and Sienna, and then raised relations in order to make the move to diplo-annex. But, as I found out, even though the diplomatic screen had given me the green check mark on the way to this moment, once they hit 190, suddenly it went to a red X saying that they were unimpressed with my military and thus would not become the vassal. I of course understand historically why a country wouldn't just give up their independence, but I sure wish the program would have told me that.
I kept trying, in that game, figuring to go for the very long approach, but along the way I allied also with Naples (seeking to get a stronger overall alliance), and then suddenly they went back to war with Aragon. I had been waiting, hoping to get enough favors (really do NOT like that system) to finally start a war with Lucca, then one minor near me, but with this change, I joined in, not wishing to take the prestige hit, and again my navy got rolled by Aragon (LOL) and two massive Aragonese armies started to conquer my lands. Sigh...this I might could try to rectify going back in time, but maybe this was just a clue that I was in over my head. I probably should have stayed out of it, leaving Naples to their fate, but I was already struggling to figure out how to raise up my prestige (wonder what I am missing there...it was consistently going down, not up), so....
Not really asking for advice, but just more telling you my tale of woe
and probably try to figure out a better second country to play for myself. But I certainly don't understand how the AI could ally with everyone while I could not. And I feel like the strategy to get the higher level advisor to hit the mission, thus spending about 90% of the nation's starting money is unwise. If I did try it again, I would probably just wait for the first election and take the hit on republic tradition in order to let the leader get the +1 to Diplo and see if that did it.You probably need to play a variety of larger countries before you try a small Italian one. I don’t remember what you played originally, but I’d recommend Ottomans, France, England then try Portugal. Each will give you a different slice of the game.Well, as some of you noted, I'm probably in over my head. I've now tried to play as Florence about 7 times. LOL The intricacies of the diplomatic situation as well as simply feeling as if the AI gets to operate with different rules confounds me. Perhaps the major problem is that I have been trying to do what I thought some of you said I could do with those first two missions. So, diplomatically I know I need to figure that out, both in getting the two allies and avoiding going to war with some massive confederation. Every time but once when I tried, every other nation refused to be my ally so there was simply no way possible to ally anyone within the first two days, as was suggested. So then I try to do things like a marriage or sending a diplomat to improve relations, but then even after the successful marriage, as you all know, then I can't get the alliance with that nation for another month. By the time a month has gone by, with improved relations, every other country is already allied or enemies. There have been a couple of times when the Papal States were close to being my friend, and I will send a diplomat to improve relations, and even though they are then happier a week or two later, the situation suddenly changes because they've befriended someone who I rivaled, or they are friends of a friend, or, as happened last night, suddenly they have too many relations---meaning, it sure feels like the AI gets a benefit situation to where all of their nations can actually ally while I am running around trying to get people happy.
Then, in one go where I thought I was okay, and then went to war with Sienna (who had two allies, but nothing major, or so I thought) my fleet got rolled by the combined alliance fleet, and even though I took the province finally, they would not give up the land (even though the war score was high enough) and I had no way to get over to one of their allies (Ragusa).
Then, in another go, I thought I would be more typical diplomatic style that I prefer, and I allied both Bologna and Sienna, and then raised relations in order to make the move to diplo-annex. But, as I found out, even though the diplomatic screen had given me the green check mark on the way to this moment, once they hit 190, suddenly it went to a red X saying that they were unimpressed with my military and thus would not become the vassal. I of course understand historically why a country wouldn't just give up their independence, but I sure wish the program would have told me that.
I kept trying, in that game, figuring to go for the very long approach, but along the way I allied also with Naples (seeking to get a stronger overall alliance), and then suddenly they went back to war with Aragon. I had been waiting, hoping to get enough favors (really do NOT like that system) to finally start a war with Lucca, then one minor near me, but with this change, I joined in, not wishing to take the prestige hit, and again my navy got rolled by Aragon (LOL) and two massive Aragonese armies started to conquer my lands. Sigh...this I might could try to rectify going back in time, but maybe this was just a clue that I was in over my head. I probably should have stayed out of it, leaving Naples to their fate, but I was already struggling to figure out how to raise up my prestige (wonder what I am missing there...it was consistently going down, not up), so....
Not really asking for advice, but just more telling you my tale of woe
There are also fun non European countries, if you want to venture out into the world.
Take your time. This is a long game and it’s very dynamic. If a road is blocked, bide your time and prepare. Gather cash, drill your armies, build your economy. I mentally divide the game into three periods. 1444 - 1550. Existential. Conquer what you can, build alliances, build your economy, get to the point where your immediate neighbors are either allies or too weak to be threats. 1550 - 1650. Great Power. Climb the league table. Make strategic conquests. Play the trade game. Cut the legs out from under your rivals. 1650 - end of game. Imperial. The world is your oyster.
Remember that most conflicts with actual rivals are won over several wars. Don’t hold out for that last little bit of war score. Peace out and take money. It’s amazing how the additional cash helps in the next war. Take what land you can but be mindful of your AE. Grabbing an extra province isn’t worth it if it triggers a coalition war. And keep on eye on your own overextension. Don’t take more territory than you can comfortably integrate over five years or so. Rebel wack a mole isn’t much fun.
Lastly, idea groups really matter, especially the early ones. Think about what you need to accomplish in the first hundred years and pick the idea groups that will fit best with your strategic plan - remembering that you are going to spend precious mana to buy the ideas.
Start playing countries for achievements. That will make you learn much faster, as you will google necessary things. I would not try achievements with time constraints yet. As for italian states Bologna has fun achievement of creating Texas/Mexico, and then you can play as released vassal and enjoy becoming an italian cowboy republic
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Thank you Hayseed. Brilliant advice. I recognize that I struggle to accept that I might accomplish one or two goals in only 25 years of game time. In other games that I play, there is more of an urgency to accomplish things consistently.
Questions to your comments:
- what does "drill your armies" mean?
- I think I was avoiding France and England because I played them (with much fun and enjoyment) in EU2, so was trying another path. And I just played Castile to start, so maybe not wanting another Iberian war. Still, your point is absolutely correct as I played that version on vanilla, and then added some other DLC on sale...so, I'm learning fresh yet again.
- Can you help me understand the development aspect of the game--you didn't say this in your post, but over and over I see people mentioning something about developing provinces or being happy to take an area that has high development. I know how to do it by using the monarch points, but why would someone use them rather than getting to the next tech, unless they were far ahead of others? Is there some nation benefit, say "if you get 50% of your lands up to 10 development, you get X benefit?"
- the balance of overextension is connected to admin tech, right? Being able to core what you take in a relatively short time?