Neither is Prussia in 1419.Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
Yes and considering historically France wasn't in "good" shape in 1870.
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Actually, France definitly has greater tax base. Also, it has greater manpower, IIRC. Both in game. Before conscription centers.
So it was in real life.
There is no point saying 'in my game...' The AI is fighting with both hands behind its back and missing one eye. I can unify france a britany! Not cuz I'm an Uber player but because the AI is about as intelligent as a drunken chimp! The AI is hopeless. hell in hands off games I often hear of france!! not becoming unified. Do you really think that in 1419 or 1492 you could defeat a French player equal to your skill as you try to Unite Germany? You start with huge disadvantages that everyone seem to ignore here. The french player will be unified and able to both make her colonial empire and begin to screw with your efforts to unify Germany. Any ally you gain france has a counter to it. You have less man power and money (IN THE BEGINNING). Its harder to seige the country (get a unit in each provence thus stopping your ability to build units) of france while its twice as easy to do that to you.(I'm not saying this is easy in a PvP game just its easier for france less provences to cover (IN THE BEGINNING). There is a reason why germany never united until the latter half of the 1800's France never let them! along with the OTHER nations of europe. It was to their(the other powers of europe) advantage to keep germany down.
I'm not saying that the german culture dont have great provences or more of them but I am saying that in a PvP (a true measure of their strengths) France will have all the advantages because she starts with them and can keep those advantages till the end of the game. For every provence that the German player needs to unify Germany the french player can add two or three colonial/pagan provences. By the Time Germany is formed in Europe, France is the Super power in the game (IN A PvP GAME).
Time is what kills germany. She doesnt have any. France in unified in 50 years or less! and Germany is still dreaming of the day it will be. France doesnt sit by and do nothing during the period of time Germany is being unified she is taking rich provences in Africa and the new world. By the 1600 NA and SA are very rich areas of the world and there are a lot of provences to find in east asia and Australia as well.
Three religions in Germany only 2 in france Hmmm seems like yet another advantage to France. All these advantages add up!! In the end the Colonial provences of france can out strip all German culture provences in production and trade. That leaves only man power and Population in germany's favour and I'm talking about only frances colonial provences!! France has had the advantage of a greater income all through out the game! Do you honestly beleive that in a PvP game that France wouldnt have a tech advantage by the time you unite the German states? They key to beat france in a PvP game is to play an other colonial power. Portugal can hoop france very quickly in the new world. She can get there right away and invade the pagan nations to gain their maps and their gold rich provences!
The best games are PvP with France, England, Spain, Portugal, Austria/Hungry, Russian, Ottaman and Sweden. I've never seen it myself but each power has to really worry about the other. In a game with just two players that are of equal skill than their nation will likely be the biggest desiding factor on who wins.
I'm not saying that the german culture dont have great provences or more of them but I am saying that in a PvP (a true measure of their strengths) France will have all the advantages because she starts with them and can keep those advantages till the end of the game. For every provence that the German player needs to unify Germany the french player can add two or three colonial/pagan provences. By the Time Germany is formed in Europe, France is the Super power in the game (IN A PvP GAME).
Time is what kills germany. She doesnt have any. France in unified in 50 years or less! and Germany is still dreaming of the day it will be. France doesnt sit by and do nothing during the period of time Germany is being unified she is taking rich provences in Africa and the new world. By the 1600 NA and SA are very rich areas of the world and there are a lot of provences to find in east asia and Australia as well.
Three religions in Germany only 2 in france Hmmm seems like yet another advantage to France. All these advantages add up!! In the end the Colonial provences of france can out strip all German culture provences in production and trade. That leaves only man power and Population in germany's favour and I'm talking about only frances colonial provences!! France has had the advantage of a greater income all through out the game! Do you honestly beleive that in a PvP game that France wouldnt have a tech advantage by the time you unite the German states? They key to beat france in a PvP game is to play an other colonial power. Portugal can hoop france very quickly in the new world. She can get there right away and invade the pagan nations to gain their maps and their gold rich provences!
The best games are PvP with France, England, Spain, Portugal, Austria/Hungry, Russian, Ottaman and Sweden. I've never seen it myself but each power has to really worry about the other. In a game with just two players that are of equal skill than their nation will likely be the biggest desiding factor on who wins.
Actually, quite the opposite.
But those provinces are poorer and provide less manpower than French ones.Originally posted by Trip
Even without the Low Countries, and only provinces with German culture, Germany has a greater advantage over France in most areas. German culture extends from Prussia in the east, to beyond the Rhine in the west, Schleswig and Holstein in the north, down to the southern tip of Austria in the south. 'Germany' is quite big.
Jesus Christ, France has bigger tax base! Count it, if you don't believe me, i've done it (and i've even posted it somewhere)
And France has wine, which is more valuwable than cloth, for example. (Which Germany doesn't have that much, three provinces)
I never counted manpower, but i suposse it also is bigger for France (not counting CC)
As it was in real life.
Oh my... well, i've done the first part.
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=25453
I dunno why everyone is still talking about higher population of Germany, compared to France, despite the fact that it was quite the opposite.
maybe because later on germany had a population explosion and grew to eclipse france.
re: Belissarius
Yes, I agree completely. With the advantages that France starts off with compared to Brandenburg (the most possible canidate for German unification), a PvP game between the two will result in France crushing BB. There's simply no way to compete within the timespan due to the disunion between the Germanic states.
Working off your numbers...
Okay, present-day Germany starts off at 9 million.
Germanic culture was located in about 2/3 to 3/4 of present day Poland, but we'll be conservative. Add 2 million.
Austria is German, add 2 million.
A bit of the low countries... 0.5 to 1 million.
Parts of Czechslovakia, at least 1 million.
Switzerland is quite German, 0.6 million.
Add all of that up, and you get around 15 million or so, very close to France. Could be higher or lower than this number. True, these numbers are quite rough, but you have to take in consideration so was the meathod of acquiring the population of areas back then, as well as distribution of people. The tax efficiency of Germany was 2 better than that of France, which, according to those numbers, would make Germany more productive and wealthy in comparison.
The complete and utter disarray of German culture in a myriad of mini-states doomed Germany to be a shadow of its potentential, until well into the industrial age. Due to the cirumstances of Germany during the time of EU, France could dominate it, no question there. Had 'Germany' been united however, I believe that it would have stood quite a good chance of beating France in any engagement. We can disagree, but this is just my opinion.
Yes, I agree completely. With the advantages that France starts off with compared to Brandenburg (the most possible canidate for German unification), a PvP game between the two will result in France crushing BB. There's simply no way to compete within the timespan due to the disunion between the Germanic states.
Those numbers are present day boundaries though, my friend, correct? That's how I interpreted that. Today the boundaries of Germany are significantly smaller than that of previous times. Nearly all (but not entirely) of present-day Poland was Germanic.
Working off your numbers...
Okay, present-day Germany starts off at 9 million.
Germanic culture was located in about 2/3 to 3/4 of present day Poland, but we'll be conservative. Add 2 million.
Austria is German, add 2 million.
A bit of the low countries... 0.5 to 1 million.
Parts of Czechslovakia, at least 1 million.
Switzerland is quite German, 0.6 million.
Add all of that up, and you get around 15 million or so, very close to France. Could be higher or lower than this number. True, these numbers are quite rough, but you have to take in consideration so was the meathod of acquiring the population of areas back then, as well as distribution of people. The tax efficiency of Germany was 2 better than that of France, which, according to those numbers, would make Germany more productive and wealthy in comparison.
The complete and utter disarray of German culture in a myriad of mini-states doomed Germany to be a shadow of its potentential, until well into the industrial age. Due to the cirumstances of Germany during the time of EU, France could dominate it, no question there. Had 'Germany' been united however, I believe that it would have stood quite a good chance of beating France in any engagement. We can disagree, but this is just my opinion.
Your last statement- well, i simply don't know. Population and wealth aren't the only things that are important in judging country 'power'. They aren't even decisive.Originally posted by Trip
re: Belissarius
Yes, I agree completely. With the advantages that France starts off with compared to Brandenburg (the most possible canidate for German unification), a PvP game between the two will result in France crushing BB. There's simply no way to compete within the timespan due to the disunion between the Germanic states.
Those numbers are present day boundaries though, my friend, correct? That's how I interpreted that. Today the boundaries of Germany are significantly smaller than that of previous times. Nearly all (but not entirely) of present-day Poland was Germanic.
Working off your numbers...
Okay, present-day Germany starts off at 9 million.
Germanic culture was located in about 2/3 to 3/4 of present day Poland, but we'll be conservative. Add 2 million.
Austria is German, add 2 million.
A bit of the low countries... 0.5 to 1 million.
Parts of Czechslovakia, at least 1 million.
Switzerland is quite German, 0.6 million.
Add all of that up, and you get around 15 million or so, very close to France. Could be higher or lower than this number. True, these numbers are quite rough, but you have to take in consideration so was the meathod of acquiring the population of areas back then, as well as distribution of people. The tax efficiency of Germany was 2 better than that of France, which, according to those numbers, would make Germany more productive and wealthy in comparison.
The complete and utter disarray of German culture in a myriad of mini-states doomed Germany to be a shadow of its potentential, until well into the industrial age. Due to the cirumstances of Germany during the time of EU, France could dominate it, no question there. Had 'Germany' been united however, I believe that it would have stood quite a good chance of beating France in any engagement. We can disagree, but this is just my opinion.
But back to numbers. First, i assume you took the numbers from the thread i linked.
About Poland-in game, it's less than half area of present day, not even close to 3/4 or even 2/3. And the less wealthy area, that is.
In real life, it's even less, since Danzig wasn't German cultured (province, not city), and Silesia was split between Czech, Poles and Germans, not to mention part of Pommerania was also polish cultured.
Ok, that was just nitpicking
.Anyway, i'm aware that boundaries were different. No need to add those, since the numbers i gave were from the book which also had numbers for whole HRE. (which includes some areas that weren't German at all, like core Bohemia, lower Low Countries)
In 1500. HRE 17m people, French culture provinces (+Britanny) probably above 15m.
In 1400, HRE12,5m people, French 12m.
Present day Germany was 6,5 and 9m in those years.
HRE means Low countries, Switzerland, Austria, Bohemia, and some of eastern France. Which means, it consist not only of German provinces, but also Dutch, French and Czech.
Since population values are almost equal, substracting non-german ones will bring German population below French.
And your last statement-that about tax effiecency. I'm quite puzzled by it, only thing i know is that England, Netherlands and France had the most effiecent taxation systems in XVIII century. Don't know about earlier times.
And it was until XIX century, when Germany (and England, too-England population was even smaller compared to today's) population growth skyrocketed, while French stagnated.
Correct answer revealed!
After carefully analysing the numerous posts above, I have finally reached the correct answer. I base my findings on the following.
1) Half of the writers support France using game-play arguments
2) Half of the writers support Germany using game-play arguments
3) The third half supports France using real-world arguments based on the time-periods that would support France
4) The fourth half supports Germany using real-world arguments based on the time-periods that would support Germany
5) The fifth half tells us how they succeeded with respectively France and Germany, which tells us nothing whatsoever
Five halves being at least three too many, it is obvious that the right answer is...
The Mughal Empire
Covering as it did the entire world, every single spot of land, no matter how poor, sporting a purple flag planted by the dedicated scientists, and incorporating both France and Germany, it is the only completely rational answer.
After carefully analysing the numerous posts above, I have finally reached the correct answer. I base my findings on the following.
1) Half of the writers support France using game-play arguments
2) Half of the writers support Germany using game-play arguments
3) The third half supports France using real-world arguments based on the time-periods that would support France
4) The fourth half supports Germany using real-world arguments based on the time-periods that would support Germany
5) The fifth half tells us how they succeeded with respectively France and Germany, which tells us nothing whatsoever
Five halves being at least three too many, it is obvious that the right answer is...
The Mughal Empire
Covering as it did the entire world, every single spot of land, no matter how poor, sporting a purple flag planted by the dedicated scientists, and incorporating both France and Germany, it is the only completely rational answer.
I read about the Mughal empire a bit in high school but I wasn't aware they were that large. How big was the empire exactly? Didnt britain fight them for control of colonies somewhere?
cuz in my post i was comparing frances colonies vs German European Provences. A point which you deleted from my quote!. if you quote someone dont delete parts of it so as to screw the meaning. you quoted me in such a way that proves you wanted to miss quote me thats very bad form and you should change your post to reflect what I really said. Before the words you lefting I sated I was comparing Frances colonies and after the words you quoted I reiterated that it was frances colonies compared with German european provences.
I am very pissed off at you right now. While you may not think its a big deal I do. You have lie as to what I said by deleting the point before and after. These are one line comments too not the whole post. Then you say its a false statement. Well after you changed its meaning of coarse its false.
I believe that anyone that takes a Quote and changes it or deletes it so its meaning is completely changed should be banned. Why because you have taken my comments and falsely represented them. And done so in such a way that makes it appear as I really said those things as you have presented. There are few things that truely anger me but lying about what I said is one of them.
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Hmmm. I edited out most of your post, because i wanted to point out just one things, while you were comparing all F vs G capabilities (like religion), which had no connection whatsoever to populations, which was the issue i wanted to adress.
Here's more of your post. In my impression, in the fragment i highlighted, you talk about 1)France colonies alone bring more production and trade income, thus France has greater income during whole game
which implies, that without colonies, France would have lower income than Germany.
I disagree with that, in game, France is richer.
you also stated that this (France richness due to colonies) leaves manpower and population in Germany's favous.
I also think it's not true, France has bigger manpower IIRC.
Or have i misunderstood something?
EDIT/I see that you edited your post i was responding too while i was writing. Let me read it...
Well, ease down man. I wasn't deliberately lying, or trying to put words in your mouth. If i made it looks like it, that's because i posted very short post, and i might also misunderstood your point
(for example, you could mean that Germany had bigger population that France colonies only, which is clearly true.)
All this does not make the Low Countries German or Flanders French just because there was some kind of nominal tie dragging back several centuries. Germany is the united actual German states (even Austria I'd call a border case), not every land that once in some way was part of the HRE. U might as well take Napoleontic France as example for France and the Roman Empire for Italy.
Italy today considers itself a continuation of the Roman empire. For example no Italian calls the country Italy, they call it Rome. Its a continuation in all respects just a very poor one unfortunately.
Originally posted by jaronpinochet
Italy today considers itself a continuation of the Roman empire. For example no Italian calls the country Italy, they call it Rome. Its a continuation in all respects just a very poor one unfortunately.
When have u last been in Italy? 395?
Youre still describing the Germany of 1648-1990. Whether you like it or not, Flanders was definitely a fief of France from 864-1500s. If it wasnt, then tell me why Philip the Handsome did homage to the French king for it? Just because he felt like it? And Brabant, Luxemburg, etc., were without doubt fiefs of the German Kingdom from 925-1548. Sorry, but thats the truth. Go look it up.
And "Germany is the united actual German states (even Austria I'd call a border case)" is only true after 1648. That was absolutely not the definiton of Germany in 1419. And youre not seriously telling me that Austria wasnt a definite part of the German Kingdom in 1419, or even in 1648? Look that up too.
And "Germany is the united actual German states (even Austria I'd call a border case)" is only true after 1648. That was absolutely not the definiton of Germany in 1419. And youre not seriously telling me that Austria wasnt a definite part of the German Kingdom in 1419, or even in 1648? Look that up too.
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Ugh... north Italy was also, but no one is suggesting to include it into 'unified Germany' concept. Got the point?
No Maur, north Italy was composed of fiefs of the EMPIRE, not fiefs of the Kingdom of Germany. Believe it or not, they were two completely separate things. Look that up as well. Again, youre making erroneous judgments based on a modern concept of Germany that has absolutely no meaning in the 15th c. The Kingdom of Germany never included any of Italy; that was part of the Empire. However, The Kingdom in 1419/92 without a doubt included all the Low Countries except Flanders & Artois. Sorry if that bothers you, but its still true.
What youre all saying is analogous to telling me that France included Alsace-Lorraine in 1419 just because it did later. If youre all so sure Im wrong, then why dont you go check in a BOOK instead of the forum, and you'll find out.
What youre all saying is analogous to telling me that France included Alsace-Lorraine in 1419 just because it did later. If youre all so sure Im wrong, then why dont you go check in a BOOK instead of the forum, and you'll find out.
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