Which is more powerful in EU2, a unified Germany or a unified France?

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Belissarius
There is one thing that gives France an advantage not noted here. Colonies. France is a colonial power in the game Germany is not (in the scope of the game) Colonies can add much needed resources to the equation. Its easy for france to gain colonies as she gets the leaders for exploration. Its also far easier to france to unite and thus giver her an advantage over the long haul as germany unites. In a Player vs. Player situation I'd give the upper hand to France hands down. By the time Germany in united (assuming france allows it) france ins a major power in the new work [edit: and the new world too] thus giving her the added iron, copper, Naval supplies and fish for the military techs and a huge advantage in the area of trade and goods provences like sugar and cotton.

Also the advantage in core provences means that france doesnt have to worry about nationalism for the vast, vast majority of her provences (i think only one french culture provence isnt a core provence). When you add up all these points france has a huge time advantage that will enable it to out tax, out produce and out research germany.

Don't be too sure about colonies. Do the math on how much it costs for a colony to beocme a city (whout even factoring failures in).

It can be about 500 ducats.

A german player can raise 30 thousand men for 500 ducats.

Don't be so quick on your other ones. Germany's tax value is, on average, higher than France's.

It's manpower balances out at a respectable 73k. France gets about 50-60k, at max quantity.

Production? Please... germany's mostly iron, copper, and cloth.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Within the context of the game, I would say that France has a large advantage. This is mainly due to the fact that a good player can unite France by 1440. Germany is difficult to unite before 1700, if at all.

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Trip
Within the context of the game, I would say that France has a large advantage. This is mainly due to the fact that a good player can unite France by 1440. Germany is difficult to unite before 1700, if at all.

I can do it by 1490

Well, a good chunk of it.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Trip
Even without the Low Countries, and only provinces with German culture, Germany has a greater advantage over France in most areas. German culture extends from Prussia in the east, to beyond the Rhine in the west, Schleswig and Holstein in the north, down to the southern tip of Austria in the south. 'Germany' is quite big.

If u are going to take Greater Germany u might as well also take Napoleontic France on the other hand

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Faeelin


Don't be too sure about colonies. Do the math on how much it costs for a colony to beocme a city (whout even factoring failures in).

It can be about 500 ducats.

A german player can raise 30 thousand men for 500 ducats.

Don't be so quick on your other ones. Germany's tax value is, on average, higher than France's.

It's manpower balances out at a respectable 73k. France gets about 50-60k, at max quantity.

Production? Please... germany's mostly iron, copper, and cloth.

Where do u get ur facts?

If colonies are that crap why is everyone getting them?

A French player can also raise 30K for 30 ducats if he wants (so can a German one )

Both have very nice provs to go around. U have to bear in mind though that French starting base tax values were decreased to only be increased again thru events. France has lots of wine. Germany has lots of iron. Both have 1 copper and if u count Flanders with France both have 3 cloths. Not that is overly significant.

France at full quantity can get around 100K manpower.

 

[Faeelin]

Colonies aren't crap.

they're useful. But for France, they're not the be all end all. In fact, they can be a disadvantage for France.

You may believe that France is better if you'd like. But if gien the choice between a german and french covering nation, I know what I'd pick.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Faeelin
Colonies aren't crap.

they're useful. But for France, they're not the be all end all. In fact, they can be a disadvantage for France.

You may believe that France is better if you'd like. But if gien the choice between a german and french covering nation, I know what I'd pick.

Even bigger chance is that they are a huge advantage

France has the ability to get tons of colonies, conquer Spain or so and at the same time keep Germany from forming. Xure, of course if u mismanage them like making ur colonies a disadvantage it won't happen but well, how likely is that.

 

[unmerged(6668)]

The Netherlands, except Flanders, Artois, (& Franche Comte for this purpose) were part of the Kingdom of Germany from 925 until Charles V broke them off as an "Imperial Circle" separate from the Kingdom but within the Empire (1548), & then passed them on to Spain.

The Burgundians held fiefs on both sides of the Franco-German border; Flanders, Artois, Picardy, and Burgundy itself were French, & Brabant, "Zeeland", Luxemburg, Holland, Friesland, & Guelders were German. There was no separate "Netherlands", Burgundian or otherwise, until after 1548; they were all part of either the French Kingdom or the German. The only 1 that was "imperial" but not "royal" in 1419/92 was Franche Comte. This is why Charles the Bold wanted a royal crown of his own from the Emperor.

Switzerland was technically part of the Kingdom until the Treaty of Basel (1499) when it too was separated but still in the Empire. Lorraine, although French cultured in the game, was part of Germany proper until after 1552 and arguably much longer.

So if I start in 1419/92, Im not being inconsistent. I also use the reverse to be "consistent"; since Posen, Sudeten, Erz, & Silesia were NOT part of the German Kingdom, I leave them alone. I also dont annex Bohemia or Hungary when given the chance. Nor do I keep Flanders, Artois, or Franche Comte although I easily could. Since I start 1419/92, I just make sure that things dont reach the sorry state they did IRL by 1648.

The questionable (in 1419) provinces I took are on the eastern border:
1) Prussia, Memel, & Danzig. By the time I got there, Brandenburg owned Prussia & Memel, plus Memel was German from 1252-1923 & Prussia, well, enough said. I grabbed Danzig because it was held by the Teutonic Knights from 1308-1466 and largely populated by Germans & I needed that corridor to connect Prussia & Pomerania.
2) Pressburg, Odenburg, & Krain. Carniola was always part of the German Kingdom (900s-1918) and should be in EU; Odenburg was predominantly German and is German cultured in EU; Pressburg rounds those two off, was a seat of the Hapsburgs, & always had a large German population.

 

[InnocentIII]

How many times do you see people post "You're playing Germany? How cheap."

Now try telling people that when you play you usually play France

Seems to me that the overwhelming opinion of players is that France is easier to play, i.e. more powerful

(though I admit that does take ease of forming the country into account).

 

[unmerged(8303)]

I played a game as Brandenburg and over the years i managed to unite most of the northern protestant german states. But you get greedy sometimes..dont you? Just like real rulers! You are happy with all your german protestant subjects but you just HAVE to go for that Kurland CoT even though you don't need it. Anyhow My united semi-germany was very strong. The only CPs I had were Kleves, Brandenburg, Kustrin, Magdeburg, Prussia, and Memel. I dont recall if you get danzig with the inheritence event I dont think so. Oh yeah, and Silesia too! Of course building conscription centers whenever I could I had a manpower around 75k or so. Most of my provinces had factories. The cost for me to build a new one was like 5000 ducats or so so I had to stop after awhile. Inflation was low so I was very strong. If a player can unite a large number of german provinces, build a strong infrastructure, drain every province for every single ducat you can make from it. You can easily defeat France! I invaded and destroyed the French in a war. I took lorraine from them I think. Even with all that though at the last stages of the game wars can go either way. I could build an army of 100k (estimated ) in Berlin at a seconds notice but it didnt guarantee victory. On the other hand though, as France I could have done the same thing only better by maybe 1600 without conscript centers so I think it depends on how much effort you put into building a powerful infrastructure. Everything else is second to that.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Originally posted by Faeelin


Don't be too sure about colonies. Do the math on how much it costs for a colony to beocme a city (whout even factoring failures in).

It can be about 500 ducats.

A german player can raise 30 thousand men for 500 ducats.

Colonies are quite valuable. In fact, it is almost impossible to create a province that does not generate a net profit. Even a reasonably-sized colonial empire can generate dozens, if not hundreds, of ducats a year in annual income alone. That doesn't count colonial trade from COTs. Sure colonists cost money, but in the long term they pay for themselves many times over. Since Germany (unless human controlled) will only form in the long term, France (even AI controlled) has plenty of time to create a large colonial empire & reap the ducats.

 

[unmerged(6668)]

I admit that "Germany" as the human & France as AI inherently unbalances the question of which is more powerful, and the reverse is also true. But if I read it right, the guy asked a question about which would be stronger if he united each in separate campaigns. I answered there's a possibility based on what I did that its "Germany".

So Im not "playing Germany" like its a choosable country in the game. I played as Austria and I set some goals other than dicking around in the east for the next 400 years. I rebuilt the kingdom that Maximilian I inherited in 1486, trying to be reasonably fair about which provinces I could claim and which I couldnt even if they were counted as "German" in the game or historically held by the Hapsburgs. I looked up those I was unsure about. Pretty simple really.

Contrary to popular opinion, Austria was not a "nation" in 1492; it was just an Archduchy in the Kingdom of Germany, of which it had been part since 976. Its Dukes got their hands on the crown of that kingdom and all the claims that came with it. They couldnt make good on all of them; I did. Now you look at the EU map of France in 1419 and tell me that youre not doing the same thing with them. If the game started in 1990, I would use those rules; but it starts in 1419 so I look at it through those eyes.

Even if I subtract what BiB said ("German" Netherlands, Lorraine, & Switzerland), Im still at 35 provinces. That makes me some sort of match for France (30), doesnt it? Spain only has 20 (or 23 w/Portugal); England only has 20 if it annexes ALL of Ireland & Scotland, and a reunited "Italy" only gets 20 if you include Corsica & Malta but not Dalmatia! A united Scandinavia only has 17 (or 22-24 w/Finland). So start counting provinces & comparing resources & manpower if you really want to answer his question.

 

[Belissarius]

Originally posted by Faeelin


Don't be too sure about colonies. Do the math on how much it costs for a colony to beocme a city (whout even factoring failures in).

It can be about 500 ducats.

A german player can raise 30 thousand men for 500 ducats.

Don't be so quick on your other ones. Germany's tax value is, on average, higher than France's.

It's manpower balances out at a respectable 73k. France gets about 50-60k, at max quantity.

Production? Please... germany's mostly iron, copper, and cloth.

You havent taken into account TIME!!!! France can unify in less than 50 years with little hits to badboy!! Try to unify germany in 50 years and the BB wars will destroy you.
You are looking at the map as what does Germany look like whole and what does France look like whole. The time takes to unify is time france is creating a colonial Empire. The money germany spends ie armies is money that France make colonies with finds new CoT to gain greater income from trade. This game is about taking advantage of your strengths France has them is spades compared to any nation that tries to unify Germany. Her strength is Time and money!! Yes money. France has greater manpower, greater trade and production income than any german state at the games start and she can use that money to quickly get all french culture provences and then use that money and manpower to add more provences from the new world.

You can't simply count the provences of german culture and they compare them to french ones. You have to remember how the game works. You dont start with a unified Germany not even close to it. In 20 to 30 years France has almost all her core provences which is a lot more than any German state and now she can take her larger economy and make it stronger while the would be german player spends 150-250 more years creating a united germany.

In a Player vs. Player game france has all the advantages in the beginning of the game and that means she wins! She is larger and has more vassels that any german power. In twenty years she can pol. annex them and now she is huge and almost unified. A few wars during that time and almost all her core provences are under the french flag. There is no way germany is any where near unified in that time frame.

 

[unmerged(6668)]

Youre right about that. By the time I was "united" France had a large colonial empire; I had none. Of course that didnt stop me from dominating the Continent and crushing France every time there was a war, but whatever. I still kept them out of Italy & helped England boot them from North America & India altogether, and ended the game with most of the historic Dutch colonies in my pocket. All that extra time didnt make France able to stop me or even threaten me after 1700. Of course, a human-played France wouldve been totally different...

And yes, it took a long time, but time is what I have to spend in EU2. Playing France over and over again is boring, & so is playing yet another traditional Austrian game in the east, wasting time in Hungary & Bohemia, hoping the befuddled Turkish AI will become some sort of a tiny threat so I have something to do besides marry heiresses. I have centuries to reach my goal: AEIOU.

I thought it would be interesting to try something different, and it was. Despite the theoreticals about "uniting Germany", I united what I deemed to be Germany (My $40 made me the Kaiser) and then used it to beat up France & other nations and dominate most of the world through force & diplomacy. Great fun. If you prefer to play France yet again, go right ahead...

 

[Pokka]

Why don't we make use of that scenario editor to make a Holy Roman Empire (Just make it the size of nowadays Germany) and then start a war against France.

Anyway, I think German are more powerful than France. Although France got a colonial bonus, I don't see any REAL advantage. For Germans, their provinces got tons of resources!

 

[unmerged(6324)]

I think France is better off actually!

 

[unmerged(6324)]

Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
I think France is better off actually!

Well then again....if the HRE had ALL of its provinces it historically did, then definately Germany.

 

[Jon Shafer]

In this game, France has many advantages. As has been mentioned, France has the advantage of time, many vassals, and unification in only a few years. Any German state will have a fun time uniting over the first half of the game. However, if you started from 1 point with 'Germany' and France, both united, both starting under the same conditions (i.e. no one has 10 weapons manufacturies), then Germany will eventually be able to crush France. That's generally how things developed (though Germany wasn't united until 1870)... France was a broad, colonial empire, while Germany was dominant in Europe.

 

[unmerged(6324)]

Originally posted by Trip
In this game, France has many advantages. As has been mentioned, France has the advantage of time, many vassals, and unification in only a few years. Any German state will have a fun time uniting over the first half of the game. However, if you started from 1 point with 'Germany' and France, both united, both starting under the same conditions (i.e. no one has 10 weapons manufacturies), then Germany will eventually be able to crush France. That's generally how things developed (though Germany wasn't united until 1870)... France was a broad, colonial empire, while Germany was dominant in Europe.

Yes and considering historically France wasn't in "good" shape in 1870.

 

[Pokka]

Don't forget that AI loves to give out their colonies and trading post. IF those germans are able to crash those French, defintely a lot of colonies would be given to them. So, what's those colonies for...making peace?