It might be that France had been united longer, and had been more developed. Just a theory... you'd think the difficulty it takes to unite Germany would make it stronger than France... 
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Come come now, be realistic. The AI never really has much of a chance against a good human player, 1 on 1. If it was AI France VS AI United Germany, then Germany would win.
Maybe because German culture is more widespread in Europe than French, but the Germanic lands provide for a much stronger country than France. Like ewright, 44 German provinces (plus a couple more) to about 30 French. The German Empire is much larger than that of France.
I suppose it depends on what you count as 'Germany'. If you regard Germany as only what lands Germany occupies today, then during the time encompassed by the game, then France would be much stronger (and much larger). If you include all lands that contain German culture, VS all lands that contain French culture, then 'Germany' is much stronger than 'France'.
Maybe because German culture is more widespread in Europe than French, but the Germanic lands provide for a much stronger country than France. Like ewright, 44 German provinces (plus a couple more) to about 30 French. The German Empire is much larger than that of France.
I suppose it depends on what you count as 'Germany'. If you regard Germany as only what lands Germany occupies today, then during the time encompassed by the game, then France would be much stronger (and much larger). If you include all lands that contain German culture, VS all lands that contain French culture, then 'Germany' is much stronger than 'France'.
Add that to the Prussia and Brandenburg unification event, should you be playing Brandenburg, then Germany far surpasses most countries in all of the world when united.
Even without the Low Countries, and only provinces with German culture, Germany has a greater advantage over France in most areas. German culture extends from Prussia in the east, to beyond the Rhine in the west, Schleswig and Holstein in the north, down to the southern tip of Austria in the south. 'Germany' is quite big.
Within the context of the game, I would say that France has a large advantage. This is mainly due to the fact that a good player can unite France by 1440. Germany is difficult to unite before 1700, if at all.
In this game, France has many advantages. As has been mentioned, France has the advantage of time, many vassals, and unification in only a few years. Any German state will have a fun time uniting over the first half of the game. However, if you started from 1 point with 'Germany' and France, both united, both starting under the same conditions (i.e. no one has 10 weapons manufacturies), then Germany will eventually be able to crush France. That's generally how things developed (though Germany wasn't united until 1870)... France was a broad, colonial empire, while Germany was dominant in Europe.
Neither is Prussia in 1419.Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
Yes and considering historically France wasn't in "good" shape in 1870.
re: Belissarius
Yes, I agree completely. With the advantages that France starts off with compared to Brandenburg (the most possible canidate for German unification), a PvP game between the two will result in France crushing BB. There's simply no way to compete within the timespan due to the disunion between the Germanic states.
Working off your numbers...
Okay, present-day Germany starts off at 9 million.
Germanic culture was located in about 2/3 to 3/4 of present day Poland, but we'll be conservative. Add 2 million.
Austria is German, add 2 million.
A bit of the low countries... 0.5 to 1 million.
Parts of Czechslovakia, at least 1 million.
Switzerland is quite German, 0.6 million.
Add all of that up, and you get around 15 million or so, very close to France. Could be higher or lower than this number. True, these numbers are quite rough, but you have to take in consideration so was the meathod of acquiring the population of areas back then, as well as distribution of people. The tax efficiency of Germany was 2 better than that of France, which, according to those numbers, would make Germany more productive and wealthy in comparison.
The complete and utter disarray of German culture in a myriad of mini-states doomed Germany to be a shadow of its potentential, until well into the industrial age. Due to the cirumstances of Germany during the time of EU, France could dominate it, no question there. Had 'Germany' been united however, I believe that it would have stood quite a good chance of beating France in any engagement. We can disagree, but this is just my opinion.
Yes, I agree completely. With the advantages that France starts off with compared to Brandenburg (the most possible canidate for German unification), a PvP game between the two will result in France crushing BB. There's simply no way to compete within the timespan due to the disunion between the Germanic states.
Those numbers are present day boundaries though, my friend, correct? That's how I interpreted that. Today the boundaries of Germany are significantly smaller than that of previous times. Nearly all (but not entirely) of present-day Poland was Germanic.
Working off your numbers...
Okay, present-day Germany starts off at 9 million.
Germanic culture was located in about 2/3 to 3/4 of present day Poland, but we'll be conservative. Add 2 million.
Austria is German, add 2 million.
A bit of the low countries... 0.5 to 1 million.
Parts of Czechslovakia, at least 1 million.
Switzerland is quite German, 0.6 million.
Add all of that up, and you get around 15 million or so, very close to France. Could be higher or lower than this number. True, these numbers are quite rough, but you have to take in consideration so was the meathod of acquiring the population of areas back then, as well as distribution of people. The tax efficiency of Germany was 2 better than that of France, which, according to those numbers, would make Germany more productive and wealthy in comparison.
The complete and utter disarray of German culture in a myriad of mini-states doomed Germany to be a shadow of its potentential, until well into the industrial age. Due to the cirumstances of Germany during the time of EU, France could dominate it, no question there. Had 'Germany' been united however, I believe that it would have stood quite a good chance of beating France in any engagement. We can disagree, but this is just my opinion.
The way that I define 'Germany' during this time ewright is the areas that contain German people and culture. Compare the 'Kingdom of Germany' in the 15th century with the 'Kingdom of France'. You're bound to find quite a few differences (as evidenced by the map at the time). Pokka does have a point though. There's really no way of knowing... Germany was so fragmented it couldn't possibly compete with 'France' during that time, so there's no real way of knowing. And Maur13, I appreciate you being so cool-headed through the argument. So many people I argue issues over make it into a flame-fest or a competition to prove who knows more, but I'm glad we both kept to the issues and were enjoyable to argue with.
(as evidenced by the map at the time). Pokka does have a point though. There's really no way of knowing... Germany was so fragmented it couldn't possibly compete with 'France' during that time, so there's no real way of knowing. And Maur13, I appreciate you being so cool-headed through the argument. So many people I argue issues over make it into a flame-fest or a competition to prove who knows more, but I'm glad we both kept to the issues and were enjoyable to argue with.
But it was 400 years before Germany.Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
Neither was France in 1419.
Bah, Mexico never did anything. Germany was the strongest country in the world!Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
and.....
Hey what do you think I've been saying from my first post in this thread!Originally posted by BiB
The boundaries in 1419 make for a non existant Germany apart from in name. What's ur point?
Seeing I'm about the first person ever to state this on this board and have done so many times before, even in this thread, I am not exactly dazzled by this revelation
My current game as Brandenburg, circa 1450. I have nearly all of eastern Germany under my control after wars with Poland and Bohemia. I have an alliance and good relations with 4 other states, and 2 vassals outside of my alliance. I'm at war with Kleves, Baden and Alsace, so I'll soon capture them (besieging all three at the moment) and force-vassalize them as well. 2/3 of Germany should be within the Brandenburg Empire by 1500. France... nothing at all, only diplo-annexed one of its vassals, no other change in territory. Bring it on France!
You must die, I alone am best.Originally posted by Maur13
Starting ICQ...
You're dead meat, man.
Mess with the best
Die like the rest
My current game as Brandenburg:
I was building up a HUGE treasury, when suddenly Mecklenburg declared war on me. Their entire alliance came with them (Mecklenburg and Hannover were my vassals, no less) as well. My allies armies were crushed in a matter of months. I quickly raised 80,000 men, smashed Pommern's army, followed by the Teutonic Order, Mecklenburg, Hannover, another army from Mecklenburg, and a few rebel armies. I had conqured Mecklenburg, Wurzburg and both Pommern provinces, then made peace with Mecklenburg. Unfortunately, I forgot they were the alliance leader, so Hannover, Bremen and Holstein got off without anything. I hate it when people attack me, especially the alliance I had planned on annexing eventually.
I gained 1 BB point out of that whole war (used to have 17 now I have 18), which is good. [EDIT]Actually I was looking at the wrong file... I have 19 BB points[/EDIT] Amazingly, after raising over 100,000 troops within 1 year, my economy is fully intact (which is new), and I still hold a dominant position in central Europe.
Look for the grey. And look at the year. That's Brandenburg. My vassals include Mecklenburg, Pommern, Kleves, Hessen, Saxony, Baden, and Alsace. Wurzburg and Hannover used to be vassals also, but Wurzburg was conquered by Mecklenburg so I took it in a peace agreement. Hannover was in the Mecklenburg alliance.
Brandenburg gains more core province shields correct? What is the overall effect of them? I know there is less of a chance of revolt, etc. but what are the full effects?
So this is the ongoing story of Brandenburg and the German Unification Movement, 1457.
I was building up a HUGE treasury, when suddenly Mecklenburg declared war on me. Their entire alliance came with them (Mecklenburg and Hannover were my vassals, no less) as well. My allies armies were crushed in a matter of months. I quickly raised 80,000 men, smashed Pommern's army, followed by the Teutonic Order, Mecklenburg, Hannover, another army from Mecklenburg, and a few rebel armies. I had conqured Mecklenburg, Wurzburg and both Pommern provinces, then made peace with Mecklenburg. Unfortunately, I forgot they were the alliance leader, so Hannover, Bremen and Holstein got off without anything. I hate it when people attack me, especially the alliance I had planned on annexing eventually.
I gained 1 BB point out of that whole war (used to have 17 now I have 18), which is good. [EDIT]Actually I was looking at the wrong file... I have 19 BB points
[/EDIT] Amazingly, after raising over 100,000 troops within 1 year, my economy is fully intact (which is new), and I still hold a dominant position in central Europe.
Look for the grey. And look at the year.
That's Brandenburg. My vassals include Mecklenburg, Pommern, Kleves, Hessen, Saxony, Baden, and Alsace. Wurzburg and Hannover used to be vassals also, but Wurzburg was conquered by Mecklenburg so I took it in a peace agreement. Hannover was in the Mecklenburg alliance.Brandenburg gains more core province shields correct? What is the overall effect of them? I know there is less of a chance of revolt, etc. but what are the full effects?
So this is the ongoing story of Brandenburg and the German Unification Movement, 1457.
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So the only way to get the CB shields is to unify with those other countries? When does that take place? I'm sure I'll have Germany unified by then. The remnants of Pommern got conqured by Savoy (figure that out), and Prussia lost Memel to Lithuania, so it's only a matter of time before Prussia ceases to exist. I'll most likely have Kleves annexed soon as well. Oh well, I may just release them as vassals if need be, then unify with them afterwards. Does Poland have to exist as well? I may end up slicing it up next war, in the case that it conquers Prussia (which is very likely). My economy is growing steadily, and I can instantly bring at least 15 or 20,000 troops to any front, should someone attack. That in addition to my allies. I'll have to see how things develop.Originally posted by jaronpinochet
haha brandenburg does get more CB shields but only if the countries they get them on survive!! Mr. Super annex germany
You can get one on kleves ( if kleves is still around ), on pommern ( if it survives ), prussia ( yeah right! ), and the partitions of poland but for that i think prussia has to be united with brandenburg
That is very impressive. The House of Pinochet recognizes you as rightful king of Germany!
Muahahaha. Brandenburg is a superpower now. I have manpower in the 30s, and make around 500 ducats a year, and it's only 1470. I can raise an army of over 50,000 in less than a year, and it won't hardly make a dent in my treasury.
I see nothing wrong with releasing countries simply to swallow them back up again.. their resources and abilities were yours anyways, why should you be penalized for them being part of you in the first place? In my next post I'll post another screenshot of the ever growing Brandenburg/Prussian/German Empire.
I see nothing wrong with releasing countries simply to swallow them back up again.. their resources and abilities were yours anyways, why should you be penalized for them being part of you in the first place? In my next post I'll post another screenshot of the ever growing Brandenburg/Prussian/German Empire.
Or the Austro-Hungarian Empire.Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
I hope its not the same sickness that the Ottoman Empire had!
But they broke up mainly due to cultural and nationality differences. I doubt many people in Germany are still loyal to Prussia VS Bavaria VS Hannover, and whatnot.