Which faiths do you want to see?

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J.B.

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I realize that the Waldenses and Lollards will more than likely make it in the game, but I want to see the Hussites of Bohemia/Czechia, founded by Jan Hus during the Catholic Antipope turmoil of the early 1400s, to make an appearance in the game, as well. They represent another important pre-Protestant Reformation denomination of Christians that is almost identical to the core tenets of many more recent Protestant groups, with their historical and regional nuances, as the Waldensians and Lollardy also had. It is worth noting that all three of these denominations were quite strikingly similar, and had already come to represent Protestant ideals in the pre-Protestant Reformation era. Some late Roman presbyters and writers, such as Jovinianus, Helvidius, especially Vigilantius against saint/Mary prayers and relics, and also Epiphanius mainly for Iconoclastic ideas, may have possibly influenced these aforementioned High and Late Medieval groups, as well as the Early Medieval Iconoclasts, and even the principal Protestant reformers themselves; at least Jehan Cauvin/John Calvin was aware of these aforementioned Roman polemicists and preachers.

Just as there is still a Hussite Church, there is in fact a Waldensian Church that exists to this day in Italy, although they have changed on some of their positions since the Middle Ages. Notably, even during the Reformation era, most Waldensian congregations had started going Calvinist, at the urging of the Calvinists, perhaps to help offer some available political protections through an alliance with very similarly minded Christians as they were, already, yet it is important to distinguish the post-Calvin Waldensians as primarily Calvinists, whereas their Medieval forebears were not.

Despite discouraging, brutal persections, some Lollards had witnessed the rise of the Church of England, but it wasn't ever really a church influenced by the Lollard tradition, so much as a rogue Roman Catholic Church that broke apart on a national basis, and from there onward, adopted some gradual introductions of more notably Protestant theology and doctrines. Even at present, there are plenty that insist it had not gone Protestant enough. The remaining Lollards were either assimilated to become members the Church of England instituted by King Henry VIII, or joined the more similar English Baptists, Puritans, or Quakers that had emerged after the Reformation.

I wonder if the Church of England, particularly in reference to the Anglican Church as it was historically, can show up as a denomination of faith in the game, to emerge after a Norman or English culture King of England chooses to break away from Roman Catholicism, perhaps even due to a change in marriage doctrines?
 
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Basque paganism wasn't a thing anymore during CK3's timeline.
Basque paganism was completely stamped out only in 12th century. Even if we take only most skeptical approach to accounts reporting it's survival, it was very much a thing in 867 startdate.
And if you think pagan holdouts surviving over half millennium is unrealistic, remember that other isolated mountain tribes practicing of pagan faiths while completely surrounded by proselytizing monotheists, like Kalash or Nuri, kept their religion until late 19th century.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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Basque paganism wasn't a thing anymore during CK3's timeline.
Even if it was completely gone - which is contested - other "dead faiths" are being included for history purposes, and with the effect that they can be resurrected.
 
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I will be probably getting some flack for this but I agree with not including Celts, Basque paganism etc. Why?

Because they weren’t something inspiring. Ancient Greece and Rome were seen as the pinnacle of civilization during the Medieval period. It makes therefore sense if some crazy lunatic would decide to embrace its religion as a path to greatness. The same could be argued for the ancient religions of places like Egypt or Mesopotamia.
What was the legacy of the Celts that would inspire a ruler to do the same? Boudicca? Stonehenge? Being beaten and ruled by romans and after that the Anglosaxons?
 
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I will be probably getting some flack for this but I agree with not including Celts, Basque paganism etc. Why?

Because they weren’t something inspiring. Ancient Greece and Rome were seen as the pinnacle of civilization during the Medieval period. It makes therefore sense if some crazy lunatic would decide to embrace its religion as a path to greatness. The same could be argued for the ancient religions of places like Egypt or Mesopotamia.
What was the legacy of the Celts that would inspire a ruler to do the same? Boudicca? Stonehenge? Being beaten and ruled by romans and after that the Anglosaxons?
The legacy of the Irish, never conquered by Rome or the Saxons.
The bardic history, and the quite frankly much more "equal" laws of the Brehons compared to the laws that came with Rome, and then the Saxons.

The Irish were a high point in knowledge and understanding, and learning. They had schools of medicine that were famous throughout the west,and had libraries of books that contained writings from all over the ancient world, with unique commentaries on them.

They were relatively small scale, but the stories of their legends were inspiring - and strong enough to survive into the Christian period with minor changes - a heroic demi-god becomes a saint for example, or St. Patrick is anachronistically inserted into a story about one of the great bands of heroes, in order to "save" their souls and send them to heaven instead of the Otherworld.
 
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Please no. It didn't exist and having it in CK2 is annoying enough. Thank the gods that you can disable devil worshippers...
Hellenism wasn't a thing and they added it. In CK3 there are custom faiths, so why the hell couldn't they just add a satanism faith? It's not like they need to add magic or antichrist or anything of that nature. It's literally just a list of virtue and sins and mechanics they already have in the game.
 
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In defense of Paradox's decision to add Greco-Roman Hellenistic Paganism, there were in fact very small populations of adherents in both southern Greece and northern Syria. For the first, that is Monemvasia province, and for the latter, refer to the Temple of Harran in the Edessa province, and they also had the last Neoplatonic Academy. There is a modification representing them for Crusader Kings II on Steam Workshop, made by cybrxkhan. These Hellenic Pagans were not numerous enough to populate a single province to the extent of representing it as Hellenist, though. I believe it is more akin to Victoria's and Imperator's systems of pops, by which of a population of ten different representations of characters, one character of ten may well have been Hellenic, and the others, either Christians in Greece, or a mix of Christians and Moslems in northern Syria. Crusader Kings II had that far southern Peloponnesian province, where Sparta stood, as Hellenic Pagan, but they were quite generous rather than conservative in their estimates, to account the whole province as followers of the old Greco-Roman religion. Personally, I believe it is appropriate to represent it in the game, even if it had a very small, yet notable following during the era of the earliest start date, 869 AD. By 1066, they were probably all gone, or just about a handful of adherents, yet it should still be possible to revive the religion, according to the latest development diary.

I know less about the state of Celtic Paganism by the 9th century AD, but I suppose there may have been just about as many as the Hellenic counterparts circa 1066; there were even less Celtic than Hellenic Pagans, even at the early start date representing the Viking Age. The Germanic Tuistic religion of the Norse would have been much more common during those years in Ireland than the Goidelic counterpart, for a probable representation of statistics.
 
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So we know the map stretches just a little further than CK2 and they already have 99 faiths (including heretics). So what faiths do you want to see in the game?

Here's some that are confirmed:



It's extremely late game but I'd love to see the hussites as an end game heresy!
add Malian paganism, it was confirmed on the discord
mali paganism.PNG
 

DreadLindwyrm

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In defense of Paradox's decision to add Greco-Roman Hellenistic Paganism, there were in fact very small populations of adherents in both southern Greece and northern Syria. For the first, that is Monemvasia province, and for the latter, refer to the Temple of Harran in the Edessa province, and they also had the last Neoplatonic Academy. There is a modification representing them for Crusader Kings II on Steam Workshop, made by cybrxkhan. These Hellenic Pagans were not numerous enough to populate a single province to the extent of representing it as Hellenist, though. I believe it is more akin to Victoria's and Imperator's systems of pops, by which of a population of ten different representations of characters, one character of ten may well have been Hellenic, and the others, either Christians in Greece, or a mix of Christians and Moslems in northern Syria. Crusader Kings II had that far southern Peloponnesian province, where Sparta stood, as Hellenic Pagan, but they were quite generous rather than conservative in their estimates, to account the whole province as followers of the old Greco-Roman religion. Personally, I believe it is appropriate to represent it in the game, even if it had a very small, yet notable following during the era of the earliest start date, 869 AD. By 1066, they were probably all gone, or just about a handful of adherents, yet it should still be possible to revive the religion, according to the latest development diary.

I know less about the state of Celtic Paganism by the 9th century AD, but I suppose there may have been just about as many as the Hellenic counterparts circa 1066; there were even less Celtic than Hellenic Pagans, even at the early start date representing the Viking Age. The Germanic Tuistic religion of the Norse would have been much more common during those years in Ireland than the Goidelic counterpart, for a probable representation of statistics.

My thought on it is that some form of Celtic paganism would make sense - even in the context of being entirely dead, which seems to be how they're handling Hellenism as well - to fill out historical data, and for that one chance of someone deciding to revert to the Old Faith of their ancestors - perhaps locked to be player only so as not to seem too crazy, perhaps open to AI characters as well, but with a very low chance. I would not expect it to have any presence on map in the start date, but I feel it has relevancy as a historic faith, that once convered essentially the entire Isles, Brittany, and (depending on how widely you want to read it) perhaps even Gaul if you want to associate them with Celtic practices rather than placing them on their own.
 
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My thought on it is that some form of Celtic paganism would make sense - even in the context of being entirely dead, which seems to be how they're handling Hellenism as well - to fill out historical data, and for that one chance of someone deciding to revert to the Old Faith of their ancestors - perhaps locked to be player only so as not to seem too crazy, perhaps open to AI characters as well, but with a very low chance. I would not expect it to have any presence on map in the start date, but I feel it has relevancy as a historic faith, that once convered essentially the entire Isles, Brittany, and (depending on how widely you want to read it) perhaps even Gaul if you want to associate them with Celtic practices rather than placing them on their own.

In that case, it makes sense to have Celtic Paganism just as Hellenic, as didn't Crusader Kings II have historical rulers listed which were clearly depicted as following a Pagan religion in Ireland? It was the default "Pagan" one, I think. I need to check that again, but I am pretty sure that some of the dynastic lines went back far before Saint Patrick and Christianity became commonplace in Eire.
 

Bulan

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I would like to see the interesting Barghawata Islam (berber state in west africa, they had their own Quran with weird additions) and more regional differences within Catholic practice (not necessarily implemented as separate faiths).
 

Bulan

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It would be good if minor faiths had watershed events that players can work towards, similar to rebuilding the temple or becoming saoshyant on CK2. These will mostly be territorial/title-linked and could be linked to an option to change one or more tenets. E.g. if a Jewish faith rebuilds the temple it would make sense to reorient the faith around the temple and temple rites, and also spur conversion of other jewish faiths to that one. Similarly faiths should have one or more crisis events that can trigger tenet changes or wholesale apostasy of adherents and provinces. E.g. any caesaropapist faith having the top level title vacant or held by a non-adherent should trigger a crisis because the state and faith are so closely linked.
 

Katana500

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A faith I would like to see added is Vainakh Religion. Which is the ethnic religion of the Chechen (and other Vainakh) people.

Icon: the Vainakhs' symbol for the sun, a stylized Vedic swastika.

Vainakh2.jpg



Virtues:

Chivalry, gentility, diplomatic skills, manliness, generosity and reliability are the qualities which a child of a hardline Chechen family imbibes with, as they say, his mother’s milk. And the Chechen code of honor known as Nokhchallah is rooted in the remote days of Chechen history

Some potential options:
  • Brave
“Nokhchallah” rules out all attempts at subjugation. Male Chechens have, since times immemorial, been brought up as protectors and trained to bear arms. “Come at liberty” is the oldest of the greetings in actual use in Chechnya. It is the freedom of spirit and readiness to fight to protect.
  • Chivalrous
"“Nokhchallah” is special respect for women. A man dismounts his horse before entering the village where the relatives of his mother or his wife live"
  • Humble
“Nokhchallah” is an ability to deal with people without showing your privileged position. The privileged should be extra polite and accommodating to avert hurting anyone’s feelings. If two men meet and one of them is riding on horseback and the other walking, the one who is riding shall be the first to utter words of greeting
  • Gregarious
"“Nokhchallah” is friendship that lasts all life: in joy and sorrow. Highlanders hold friendship sacred. Inattentiveness or impoliteness shall be forgiven if they are displayed to a brother, but to a friend – never!"



Sins:
Really just the opposites of those above

Proud
Shy
Greedy


A second interesting faith for the Caucasus could be Circassian Habze or Habzism. Which is the ethnic religion of the Circassian people which really ought to be added as a culture.

Icon: The Circassian "hammer cross" representing their supreme god Tha
upload_2020-4-3_21-36-0.png
 
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Katana500

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Aren't these neopagan faiths? Is their evidence of their being the majority practice anywhere during the CK2 timeframe?
Well the neo pagan faiths are based off the original ethnic religions of the area. The name's of the religions admittedly might be a more modern invention though the actual faiths themselves are not.

In both 867 and 1066 Vainakh Religion would have been dominant in Chechyan and Ingush lands. It wasn't really until the 17th century that Chechnya was fully Islamicised.

Circassian Paganism probably coexisted with Christianity in the area. I think in 867 it should be dominant in all of circassia and in 1066 maybe only eastern circassia. Generally the timeline is vague for when Circassia was converted fully to Christianity. It is said that in the 11th and 12th centuries the Russian princes of Tmutarakan and the kings of Georgia carried out the conversion and that the Georgian Bagratids subjected Eastern Circassians and converted them to Greek Orthodox Christianity only in the 13th century.

I don't have time to send sources at the moment. But the Caucasus has some very interesting native faiths and it would be a shame for them to be excluded. Another religion that could be cool would be Alan Religion which was the remnants of the once larger Scythian pantheon
 
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