Which doctrine paths are best?

[seattle]

Did you actually test mob warf 1R and 1L for Germany? I'm wondering because left branch gives huge bonus to leg inf org as well as indirectly buffs armour stats of tank divisions. So are those 20% brkthr worth it or not, considering a huge part of army to be inf anyways?

I once tried the mot/mech path instead of tanks. Produced a hell of a lot mots, but in the end I was disappointed with the mediocre result. I didn't mass produce infantry though. I figured that superior firepower would have been better then anyways.
Germany just has too many boosts to tanks not to take the right path.
But trust me, it's really good for the Soviets!

 

[bERt0r]

You don't get what I said. There is this dogma that you must fill out all your support brigade slots with artillery and rocket artillery and if you follow that, yes go integrated support every time. What I'm saying is that you can spare yourself the support artillery pieces and go dispersed support just as well. In a 7-2 division, the bonus SA of an additional support artillery and the integrated support is just 22 soft attack. As you said, if you plan on making 40 width divisions with 4 artillery pieces dispersed support even comes ahead.
If you have all the IC in the world I guess you can stick support artillery to every division you have but that doesn't make it a smart or efficient decision. It does however make sense if you plan to use divisions that cannot use line artillery, like I said paratroopers and motorized/mech divisions.

 

[Zwirbaum]

You don't get what I said. There is this dogma that you must fill out all your support brigade slots with artillery and rocket artillery and if you follow that, yes go integrated support every time. What I'm saying is that you can spare yourself the support artillery pieces and go dispersed support just as well. In a 7-2 division, the bonus SA of an additional support artillery and the integrated support is just 22 soft attack. As you said, if you plan on making 40 width divisions with 4 artillery pieces dispersed support even comes ahead.
If you have all the IC in the world I guess you can stick support artillery to every division you have but that doesn't make it a smart or efficient decision. It does however make sense if you plan to use divisions that cannot use line artillery, like I said paratroopers and motorized/mech divisions.

If you're going 40W and use 4 line artillery and support artillery then integrated comes ahead. (By 2.4/3.2/4 Soft Attack more) If you don't use support artillery in that case of course dispersed will be potentially better in terms of raw soft attack assuming you will not use any support artillery unit. 4 Line Artillery III Soft Attack boost is barely above soft attack increase from just Engineers and Recon soft attack boost for example.

And if you're going for the 'more efficient' route you may as well spare one line artillery unit and go instead for support artillery for more Soft Attack/Width and /IC efficiency.

 

[Fenrirwolf]

Did you actually test mob warf 1R and 1L for Germany? I'm wondering because left branch gives huge bonus to leg inf org as well as indirectly buffs armour stats of tank divisions. So are those 20% brkthr worth it or not, considering a huge part of army to be inf anyways?

trust me, +20% breakthrough on a 40width tank division is massive and will make them cut through the enemy lines like butter, while organisation boni dont stack as well, since you already got more than enough org from the other doctrine techs.

 

[Gerar_doorlock]

I once tried the mot/mech path instead of tanks. Produced a hell of a lot mots, but in the end I was disappointed with the mediocre result. I didn't mass produce infantry though. I figured that superior firepower would have been better then anyways.
Germany just has too many boosts to tanks not to take the right path.
But trust me, it's really good for the Soviets!

I usually go left and go not for motorised, but for tanks cause plain motorised is quite mediocre. But extra org for mot means less mot in tank divisions, thus higher armour value. Extra inf org is always useful for holding the line and ports,you rarely use infantry to attack as Germany,so SF is not that good. But I definitely should try right branch as well

 

[Secret Master]

And if you're going for the 'more efficient' route you may as well spare one line artillery unit and go instead for support artillery for more Soft Attack/Width and /IC efficiency.

I figure if you are going to go Superior Firepower, you might as well spam tons of ART anyway so that you can reap the benefits. Why bother going Superior Firepower if you are not planning to put as many pieces of artillery in your divisions as possible?

trust me, +20% breakthrough on a 40width tank division is massive and will make them cut through the enemy lines like butter,

That's why I like it. It makes the tip of the spear sharper.

 

[Gerar_doorlock]

trust me, +20% breakthrough on a 40width tank division is massive and will make them cut through the enemy lines like butter, while organisation boni dont stack as well, since you already got more than enough org from the other doctrine techs.

Well, if I remember correctly, you can get 40% without right branch, and that's more than enough. Anyway I will try it out and see how it feels

 

[Zwirbaum]

I figure if you are going to go Superior Firepower, you might as well spam tons of ART anyway so that you can reap the benefits. Why bother going Superior Firepower if you are not planning to put as many pieces of artillery in your divisions as possible?



That's why I like it. It makes the tip of the spear sharper.

I'm not the one arguing here about point of not including support artillery

 

[Secret Master]

I'm not the one arguing here about point of not including support artillery

I know. I'm just pointing something out in relation to your post.

 

[bERt0r]

The point of not including support artillery is because it blocks a support slot.

 

[Zwirbaum]

The point of not including support artillery is because it blocks a support slot.

What do you put in support slots then? (Not that extra +20 ORG from integrated on all those support unit wouldn't be good...)

 

[bERt0r]

AA, Hospital, Eng, Recon, Logistics or Signal

 

[Zwirbaum]

AA, Hospital, Eng, Recon, Logistics or Signal

So you believe that at highest equipment level it is worth to trade 4.3 ORG for 2 Soft Attack and 0.03 ORG Recovery?

(BTW, I would replace Recon with Support Artillery, +10% movement rate on infantry barely noticeable, and the impact on tactics selection is almost zero)

 

[bERt0r]

You seem to misunderstand how much 0.3 org recovery is. This is counted every hour so it’s quite a lot.

 

[Zwirbaum]

You seem to misunderstand how much 0.3 org recovery is. This is counted every hour so it’s quite a lot.

In 14/4 with 5 support units ORG recovery boost from line artillery with dispersed support is 0.034782... NOT 0.3 ORG recovery.

 

[Joonnnyy]

AA, Hospital, Eng, Recon, Logistics or Signal

just switch support AA with suport ART and swich line art with line AA AND line INF
you will have better:
-soft attack, loosing maximum of 6 soft attack from ART III but gaining 2.2x the amount from inf equipment(0.5x from enegeneer and recon and another 1.2x from the inf andteh first doctrintech)
-org, from the additional inf and the bonus 20 from the docrtin
-defence, all from the inf
-AA value, since you now have lineAA
you will have worse:
-org regain, inf have 0.3 art/aa have 0.1 so instead of 0.3 for the ART (total 0.2) and 0.1 for suppAA you have 2x 0.1 for aAA/suppART and 0.3 for INF (total 0.166) which is less then your division should have so it reduces it very slightly, by around 0.01
-breakthrough, inf+aa has slightly less then you loose by swithing to support art i think, but not by much
-price, additional aa and inf equipment cost more then the saved artypieces but "only" steel instead of steel and tungsten
-Manpower this setup cost additional 1k manpower for the INF

 

[cunningstunts]

I once tried the mot/mech path instead of tanks. Produced a hell of a lot mots, but in the end I was disappointed with the mediocre result. I didn't mass produce infantry though. I figured that superior firepower would have been better then anyways.
Germany just has too many boosts to tanks not to take the right path.
But trust me, it's really good for the Soviets!

Interesting, I used to go right and right in the Mobile Warfare doctrine as Germany, but I'm wondering about going left and then right. In your panzer army, how many divisions are motorised infantry and how many are tanks? Because I'm assuming as Germany you'll have some tanks to break through the enemy and then lots of motorised divisions to keep up and hold the line from counterattacks. So surely buffing those motorised divisions is worth it, because you'll have more of them than tank divisions, and they need to prevent you from getting counter-encircled?

You also get +20% breakthrough from Modern Blitzkrieg and plenty of recovery rate by going left and then right. So is getting the +20% breakthrough on tanks really necessary, do you think?

 

[seattle]

I usually go left and go not for motorised, but for tanks cause plain motorised is quite mediocre. But extra org for mot means less mot in tank divisions, thus higher armour value. Extra inf org is always useful for holding the line and ports,you rarely use infantry to attack as Germany,so SF is not that good. But I definitely should try right branch as well

Try: 14 motorized + 4 motorized rocket artillery (width 40), with engineer, AT, recon, maintenance and field hospital.
Very cheap and tremendously fast and powerful (against everything but tanks) unit. Cheap because you never have to upgrade your production line and rocket arty gets great boosts later on.
To solve the tank-problem: go with the middle air doctrine tree and produce enough fighters and CAS. That will shred through enemy armour well enough.

 

[seattle]

Interesting, I used to go right and right in the Mobile Warfare doctrine as Germany, but I'm wondering about going left and then right. In your panzer army, how many divisions are motorised infantry and how many are tanks? Because I'm assuming as Germany you'll have some tanks to break through the enemy and then lots of motorised divisions to keep up and hold the line from counterattacks. So surely buffing those motorised divisions is worth it, because you'll have more of them than tank divisions, and they need to prevent you from getting counter-encircled?

You also get +20% breakthrough from Modern Blitzkrieg and plenty of recovery rate by going left and then right. So is getting the +20% breakthrough on tanks really necessary, do you think?

I don't utilize special tank and special motorized units. If I go with tanks (which I always do as Germany, but not too often with other countries), then I use one armoured template which looks something like this (width 30):
- 4 medium tanks
- 2 SPA
- 8 motorized
- engineer, AT, maintenance, recon, signal

As Germany I typically have ~60 infantry divs (width 40), 20 mountaineers (width 20), 2*24 armoured divs (width 30), 20 cavalry (6 cav, MP) for partisans, ~40 garrison divs to defend ports.

#breakthrough
I tend to do breakthroughs with my infantry (all have 4 line arty) and unleash the tanks one day later. This way the tanks preserve strength and org and let the infantry do the heavy fighting. I like my armour to be able to penetrate very deep into enemy territory which can be given up depending on the situation (rather encircle 100 divisions than grabbing and holding territory).

#why go right instead of left
Of course every sound panzer division will have more mot than armour, but:
1. there are more tanks in a tank battalion than trucks in a motorized battalion (IIRC)
2. Germany gets a lot of tank boost via ministers and such and combined with the right branch, you can create medium tanks that are as fast as motorized. I love speed more than anything and I'm only satisfied if my panzer/motorized divs can outrun any enemy. With the left branch your tanks will slow down the division. Building a division only consisting of tanks is bad because of low org.

 

[bERt0r]

In 14/4 with 5 support units ORG recovery boost from line artillery with dispersed support is 0.034782... NOT 0.3 ORG recovery.

Which is still a lot. 0.034 * 24 = 0,816 more ORG regained PER DAY.