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Gort11

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We've had lots of threads about which land doctrine trees are better than which, but how about the paths within individual doctrines? Some are straightforward, some are much more complex. For simplicity I've only listed tactics the other path doesn't get.

Mobile Warfare Paths

1. Mobile Infantry vs Blitzkrieg

MI: 10% faster mot/mech, 0.2 mot/mech recovery rate, 10 infantry organisation, 25 mot/mech organisation, 3 tank organization.
B: 6 tank organisation, +20% tank breakthrough, 0.2 tank recovery rate, 5 mot/mech organisation, and the breakthrough tactic.

This is one of the path choices where I'm unsure which is better. Mobile infantry is obviously much better for motorised and mechanised, but blitzkrieg is obviously better for tanks. Given that I always use the two together, I think that you'd have to make a tank division and compare its final stats under each doctrine path to get an answer. One part of mobile infantry seems pointless - the 10% faster motorised and mechanised - since tank speed is what's going to limit your tank divisions, not the motorised.

Mobile infantry has one important advantage over blitzkrieg - the 10 infantry organisation. Blitzkrieg doesn't modify normal infantry at all. On the other hand, mobile infantry doesn't get the breakthrough tactic, which is an excellent tactic, but I don't really know the tactics system enough to know how big an advantage getting a good one is.

2. Desperate Defense vs Modern Blitzkrieg

DD: 5% recruitable population, 10% more effective partisans and guerilla tactics.
MB: 10 inf/mot/mech organisation, 5 tank organisation, +20% tank breakthrough, 0.2 tank recovery rate, and the backhand blow tactic.

Pretty straightforward - do you need more manpower? Then go to Desperate Defense. Otherwise go to Modern Blitzkrieg. Maybe desperate defense has some niche usefulness in specific circumstances, but I think I'd always go Modern Blitzkrieg - I took this doctrine tree to make my tank divisions better, after all.

Superior Firepower Paths

1. Dispersed Support vs Integrated Support

DS: 0.2 line artillery recovery rate, 10% line artillery soft attack.
IS: 20 support battalion organisation, 50% support battalion soft attack.

This basically comes down to how many support battalions you're going to use, plus which ones. Let's consider a 7 infantry/2 artillery division using dispersed support, and one that's the same but also has a support artillery battalion and is using integrated support. The artillery from the first division has 66 soft attack for 252 cost (3.8 cost per attack), while the artillery from the second division has 81.6 soft attack for 336 cost (4.1 cost per attack) which would imply that the first division is more efficient. Then there's the recovery rate advantage dispersed gets, which is a pretty big increase (0.1 to 0.3).

On the other hand, if you're also using lots of other support battalions - hospitals, maintenance, logistics and so on - or if you're not using much line artillery, Integrated Support is probably better.

2. Airland Battle vs Shock and Awe

AB: 10% hard attack, 10% tank hard and soft attack, 2% reinforce rate, 5 frontline battalion organisation, 20% air support.
SaA: 15% soft attack, 10% hard attack, 2% reinforce rate. 1 recon company reconnaissance, 10 inf/mot/mech organisation, 0.05 inf/mot/mech recovery rate, 2 tank organisation, 0.05 tank recovery rate.

This really looks like an "advanced military vs primitive military" choice. Airland battle assumes you have a lot of tanks and planes and buffs those, shock and awe is more general. I usually go with shock and awe since I value soft attack over hard attack - I only play singleplayer though.

The 1 recon company reconnaissance is a bonus I have no idea about. It's dependent on you actually using that support battalion, and it's very hard to tell if it's doing anything at all.

Grand Battleplan Paths

Assault vs Infiltration

A: 15 mot/mech organisation, 10 infantry organisation, 30% max planning, 10% faster planning, 2 tank organisation, 10% breakthrough, 2% reinforce rate, breakthrough and overwhelming fire tactics.
I: 5 mot/mech organisation, 10 infantry organisation, 10% infantry breakthrough, 3 tank organisation, 0.1 tank recovery rate, -10% supply consumption, 25% land night attack, 2% reinforce rate, 1 recon company reconnaisance.

At first I used to think assault was the "advanced military" track here with infiltration being the "mostly infantry" path, but infiltration doesn't actually give your infantry a lot specifically - you get the same organisation and breakthrough bonuses for infantry from both paths.

The main differences between the two trees seem to be that assault gives you good mot/mech organisation, and more and faster planning. Infiltration gives you 10% less supply consumption and 25% more night attack. Given that night is about a third of the day, the night bonus comes out to about an 8% general combat bonus, which is pretty nice.

On the other hand, why are you in the Grand Battleplan doctrine if you're not going to use planning a lot?

Mass Assault Paths

Deep Battle vs Mass Mobilisation

DB: -20% supply consumption, 5 tank organisation, 0.1 tank recovery rate, 10% tank breakthrough, 10 max planning, -0.4 infantry width, 5 infantry organisation, 15 mot/mech organisation, 0.1 mot/mech recovery rate, 10% inf/mot/mech breakthrough, -25% organisation loss when moving.
MM: 30% better partisans, -10% attrition, 10 inf/mot/mech organisation, 2 tank organisation, 0.3 infantry recovery rate, 0.2 army recovery rate, -0.4 infantry width, 5% recruitable population.

This one's pretty straightforward, deep battle being a mixed doctrine with a focus mostly on tank divisions in poorly supplied areas, while mass mobilisation is mostly focused on infantry regenerating their organisation quickly, and resisting attrition.

I'd probably recommend deep battle for if you're planning to make heavy use of tank divisions - its bonuses are much better in that area. Mass mobilisation has the edge for infantry armies, though funnily enough cannot get as many infantry into a combat zone as deep battle can with its 20% supply bonus.

I actually want to try a playthrough with Deep Battle and logistics companies now, a 50% supply bonus in 1942 sounds pretty cool.
 

Deinhardt

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1. Mobile Infantry vs Blitzkrieg

MI: 10% faster mot/mech, 0.2 mot/mech recovery rate, 10 infantry organisation, 25 mot/mech organisation, 3 tank organization.
B: 6 tank organisation, +20% tank breakthrough, 0.2 tank recovery rate, 5 mot/mech organisation, and the breakthrough tactic.

This is one of the path choices where I'm unsure which is better. Mobile infantry is obviously much better for motorised and mechanised, but blitzkrieg is obviously better for tanks. Given that I always use the two together, I think that you'd have to make a tank division and compare its final stats under each doctrine path to get an answer. One part of mobile infantry seems pointless - the 10% faster motorised and mechanised - since tank speed is what's going to limit your tank divisions, not the motorised.

Mobile infantry has one important advantage over blitzkrieg - the 10 infantry organisation. Blitzkrieg doesn't modify normal infantry at all. On the other hand, mobile infantry doesn't get the breakthrough tactic, which is an excellent tactic, but I don't really know the tactics system enough to know how big an advantage getting a good one is.

To my Knowledge it's General consense that Mobile Warfare is the best path to take here.

The Reason behind this is simply due to how much effect the boni have on your Overall army. Mobile Warfare buffs your infantery, your Paratroopers, your Mountaineers, your Marines. Everything on Wheels and tracks.

Blitzkrieg on the other Hand just buffs your Tanks. And that's it. And as tanks are expensive, only a handfull of Divisions will get any boni. Unless you have the Industrial and resource capacity to stuff Armor and varients variants into every Division you have. And even then. The Breakthrough Tactic you mentioned also just applies when your Leading Generals has 1 more skill Level then the enemy, AND/OR your Division has a hardness over 50%. So again. This tactic mostly only applies to your tank divisions and even mech in this case, unless your Generals are Overall better then your opponents.

So. I dont know how much better Blitzkrieg is but from what I know the massive Org boost to your inf and mot/mech in Mobile warfare surpasses Blitzkrieg.
 

aono

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On the other hand, if you're also using lots of other support battalions - hospitals, maintenance, logistics and so on - or if you're not using much line artillery, Integrated Support is probably better.
Actually I always feel that as no-brainer.
Even as I like 7/2 divisions, I always put support artillery to them; but also I used mobile motorized divisions, and only line ART allowed there is motorized rocket one (because you don't want your art to slow divisions). Also there are marines and paratroopers I use, and even tank divisions with SPART works better for me if they have support art. After all, the very idea beyond Superior Firepower is "you should try to have as much barrels as possible in any division", right?
And I always feels bad when my support line isn't filled, so I would use full support bats anyway.
 

Claremont Waltz

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Support companies are so expensive in research, xp and kit for what you get. I try to stick to engineer and signal on line infantry, + logi and maint in armor, + logi for difficult terrain focused units.

ART is the first one I drop if I'm low in barrels. I also strongly prefer LSPG to ART because of favorable resource profile (oil is omnipresent), ability to reuse old tanks and good performance for cost (not incredible, but good).
 

Gort11

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I guess the thing I have trouble with in Superior Firepower is that I don't really know how highly to value that 0.2 recovery rate for line artillery. Given that the base value is 0.1, you're possibly having a huge impact on the general organisation level of your divisions.
 

Zwirbaum

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I guess the thing I have trouble with in Superior Firepower is that I don't really know how highly to value that 0.2 recovery rate for line artillery. Given that the base value is 0.1, you're possibly having a huge impact on the general organisation level of your divisions.

Amount of line artillery units in division / amount of all units in division (including line artillery + support units) * 0.2 = Increase of divisional org recovery rate.
 

Surimi

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Mass Assault Paths

Another way to look at it is that deep battle is the offensive branch (relatively speaking, since mass assault in general is quite defensive) while mass mobilisation is the defensive branch. Mass mobilisation is all about making you as hard to conquer as possible, particularly if you're in a weaker starting position than whoever is attacking you. On attack, you're somewhat limited to throwing infantry at things and hoping your really fast recovery eventually beats them down.

Deep battle still relies very heavily on infantry for defense, but also gives some minor buffs to armour and motorized, which means you can use armour to breakthrough without being completely outmatched.

With deep battle in particular, I would recommend using extremely large divisions of infantry with logistics companies, engineers and (for anyone except the USSR) signal companies. If expecting lots of desert or winter fighting, you could consider swapping in a maintenance company in too. The high cost of so many support companies will be offset by the fact that each company provides its bonus to a huge division. Still, these divisions cannot attack and will often take a lot of casualties, but they will have very high defence and, because they have low supply consumption, they can flood fronts and become very hard to push through. Once these divisions have exhausted an attack, you can use tank divisions (again, keep them simple and cheap, ideally with very simple production needs to ensure high efficiency bonuses) to counterattack and make territorial gains yourself.

Mass mobilization is also a great choice for small nations, as it gives them more manpower and, for the most part, they're going to be quite limited in fancy gear anyway.
 

Fulmen

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Which doctrine paths are best?

Depends on the country you're playing and the build you, your teammates and the enemy team are likely to be going for.
 

Fulmen

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Cool. What doctrine paths are best for each country and build, and why?
That post would be an essay, so I'm going to pass on writing that. But if you play multiplayer on a TS server for a few hundred hours, you'll likely learn what's good in what situation just by playing and listening to more experienced players.
 

seattle

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@Gort11
#mobile warfare
1. <--
Great for Soviets who can mass produce mots and mot-rocket arty very early. You can have a ton of fun with that branch.
1. -->
Obviously only useful if employing mass tanks. However, that path is kind of mandatory for Germany due to the numerous other tank boosts (ministers...).

Nothing to add to the 2. path decision: if and only if desperate on manpower, pick <--.

----------------
#superior firepower
1. <--
If and only if you use a lot of frontline artillery (like 1 arty for every 10 width). IC-heavy nations like USA should pick this route.
1. -->
Especially for nations which can't afford the mass arty. Try to add as many support units (with soft attack boosts) to your templates. Much cheaper than having 4 frontline artys on a width 40 infantry division.

2. <--
If and only if you rule the skies which again requires an IC-powerhouse. The soft vs. hard attack boost can play a role if your expected enemies are extreme in one direction.
2. -->
Personally I end up mostly on the right branch. Probably because I mostly pick smaller nations without thousands of planes.

USA should go <-- and <--.
----------------

#grand battleplan
<--
UK and France should pick that route. Enough IC to employ a mobile force.
-->
Perfect for Japan. You're making one wrong assumption here, in my opinion. You state that grand battleplan only makes sense if you want the planning bonus. I say that the major advantage for Japan is the entrenchment bonus!
Japan has a myriad of ports to garrison. From mainland Japan over Korea and China to Singapore, Philippines and dozens of Pacific islands. I think that I used some 50 garrison divisions as Japan and all of them benefited massively from the entrenchment bonus, none of them from planning bonus.

--------------------

#mass assault
<--
Pretty powerful late-game for Soviets because it lets you unleash unstoppable offensive campaigns. That is if you survive until then.
-->
My favourite path as Soviet Union because I love mass militia and defence in depth. If you can give up a lot of ground and fortify deep into your own territory, then you'll give the enemy massive partisan problems. This path only makes sense for nations like Soviet Union and China. Even then you have to check if you're using a mod that creates puppets during a war. Many major mods are doing that and there goes your partisan strategy. A Germany that has created mod-based Reichskommissariats all along the way to Moscow is immune to partisan. Furthermore: mods tend to help the a.i. in reducing its partisan problems.
 

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How effective are partisans really? They tie up manpower vs a human, but for Germany manpower is functionally unlimited except in extreme and unlikely scenarios. They do seem to decimate the AI, but that's because the AI is pretty stupid about garrisoning.

IMO 40w infantry divisions with mass assault is a bad idea. The sheer amount of infantry kit you need with the width reduction really cuts into the number of divs you can field. Much better off cycling 20w and using the low supply consumption to spam 40w armor divisions that have upgraded logi companies so that you can stack huge numbers of them in supply zones.

Mass Assault and GBP both benefit hugely from signal companies (which are already really good). MA needs the boost to reinforce and GBP is in dire need of the planning speed time reduction. A full strength GBP plan bonus takes _forever_ without upgraded signal companies. Over a month of planning, no lie.
 

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Actually I always feel that as no-brainer.
Even as I like 7/2 divisions, I always put support artillery to them; but also I used mobile motorized divisions, and only line ART allowed there is motorized rocket one (because you don't want your art to slow divisions). Also there are marines and paratroopers I use, and even tank divisions with SPART works better for me if they have support art. After all, the very idea beyond Superior Firepower is "you should try to have as much barrels as possible in any division", right?
And I always feels bad when my support line isn't filled, so I would use full support bats anyway.
I strongly disagree. If you check the artillery.txt file in the common/units folder of HOI you'll see this part:
# Support nerfs to combat abilities
defense = -0.5
breakthrough = -0.5
soft_attack = -0.4
hard_attack = -0.5
Support artillery gives you less stats per artillery piece than line artillery. Even with a 25% bonus to certain stats it is still inferior in any way. You're usually better off saving your support slots for other things. The right branch really is only meant for people who don't want line artillery in their divisions. Paratroopers for example or people who want to go all out on motorized infantry.
 

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I strongly disagree. If you check the artillery.txt file in the common/units folder of HOI you'll see this part:

Support artillery gives you less stats per artillery piece than line artillery. Even with a 25% bonus to certain stats it is still inferior in any way. You're usually better off saving your support slots for other things. The right branch really is only meant for people who don't want line artillery in their divisions. Paratroopers for example or people who want to go all out on motorized infantry.

And with integrated support it becomes:
defense = -0.5
breakthrough = -0.5
soft_attack = +0.1
hard_attack = -0.5
organization = 20

And it gets the same soft_attack increase per tech as line artillery. Which as I mentioned means if you're using support ART and line ART, you need 5 line art units at least to get the same soft_attack increase as from support ART when comparing dispersed vs integrated.
 

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@Gort11
#mobile warfare
1. <--
Great for Soviets who can mass produce mots and mot-rocket arty very early. You can have a ton of fun with that branch.
1. -->
Obviously only useful if employing mass tanks. However, that path is kind of mandatory for Germany due to the numerous other tank boosts (ministers...).

Nothing to add to the 2. path decision: if and only if desperate on manpower, pick <--.

----------------
#superior firepower
1. <--
If and only if you use a lot of frontline artillery (like 1 arty for every 10 width). IC-heavy nations like USA should pick this route.
1. -->
Especially for nations which can't afford the mass arty. Try to add as many support units (with soft attack boosts) to your templates. Much cheaper than having 4 frontline artys on a width 40 infantry division.

2. <--
If and only if you rule the skies which again requires an IC-powerhouse. The soft vs. hard attack boost can play a role if your expected enemies are extreme in one direction.
2. -->
Personally I end up mostly on the right branch. Probably because I mostly pick smaller nations without thousands of planes.

USA should go <-- and <--.
----------------

#grand battleplan
<--
UK and France should pick that route. Enough IC to employ a mobile force.
-->
Perfect for Japan. You're making one wrong assumption here, in my opinion. You state that grand battleplan only makes sense if you want the planning bonus. I say that the major advantage for Japan is the entrenchment bonus!
Japan has a myriad of ports to garrison. From mainland Japan over Korea and China to Singapore, Philippines and dozens of Pacific islands. I think that I used some 50 garrison divisions as Japan and all of them benefited massively from the entrenchment bonus, none of them from planning bonus.

--------------------

#mass assault
<--
Pretty powerful late-game for Soviets because it lets you unleash unstoppable offensive campaigns. That is if you survive until then.
-->
My favourite path as Soviet Union because I love mass militia and defence in depth. If you can give up a lot of ground and fortify deep into your own territory, then you'll give the enemy massive partisan problems. This path only makes sense for nations like Soviet Union and China. Even then you have to check if you're using a mod that creates puppets during a war. Many major mods are doing that and there goes your partisan strategy. A Germany that has created mod-based Reichskommissariats all along the way to Moscow is immune to partisan. Furthermore: mods tend to help the a.i. in reducing its partisan problems.
Did you actually test mob warf 1R and 1L for Germany? I'm wondering because left branch gives huge bonus to leg inf org as well as indirectly buffs armour stats of tank divisions. So are those 20% brkthr worth it or not, considering a huge part of army to be inf anyways?
 

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And with integrated support it becomes:
defense = -0.5
breakthrough = -0.5
soft_attack = +0.1
hard_attack = -0.5
organization = 20

And it gets the same soft_attack increase per tech as line artillery. Which as I mentioned means if you're using support ART and line ART, you need 5 line art units at least to get the same soft_attack increase as from support ART when comparing dispersed vs integrated.
No that is wrong. If you check the artillery_brigade.txt file you'll see that line artiller already has a +25% soft attack bonus and the +10% makes it a 35% bonus. All integrated support does is make support artillery not as useless and give nice org buffs to support brigades.
 

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No that is wrong. If you check the artillery_brigade.txt file you'll see that line artiller already has a +25% soft attack bonus and the +10% makes it a 35% bonus. All integrated support does is make support artillery not as useless and give nice org buffs to support brigades.

+10% of soft attack increase for line artillery it means to get the same absolute soft attack increase from line artillery as if you would go instead integrated support with support artillery (INCREASE from picking this doctrine route over another) you need 5 line artillery. 4 line artillery units will give you less increase of soft attack.

Each tech level also gives +10% of soft attack to both 'line' and support artillery which is the same in terms of soft attack. (Same value)
 

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Or in another words, picking Dispersed Support will give you following boosts (assuming you have 100% of equipment of mentioned tier in unit, otherwise scale it by %)

Artillery I - +2.4 Soft Attack per Artillery unit
Artillery II - +3.2 Soft Attack per Artillery unit
Artillery III - +4.0 Soft Attack per Artillery unit

Anti-Air I - +0.3 Soft Attack per Anti-Air Artillery unit
Anti-Air II - +0.35 Soft Attack per Anti-Air Artillery unit
Anti-Air III - +0.4 Soft Attack per Anti-Air Artillery unit

Anti-Tank I, II, III - +0.4 Soft Attack per Anti-Tank Artillery unit

Rocket Artillery I - +4.0 Soft Attack per Rocket Artillery unit
Rocket Artillery II - +5.5 Soft Attack per Rocket Artillery unit

Motorized Rocket Artillery - +5 Soft Attack per Motorized Rocket Artillery unit

Now let's check Integrated Support boosts.

Support Artillery I - +12 Soft Attack
Support Artillery II - +16 Soft Attack
Support Artillery III - +20 Soft Attack
Support Anti-Tank - +2 Soft Attack
Support Rocket Artillery I - +20 Soft Attack
Support Rocket Artillery II - +27.5 Soft Attack
Support Anti-Air I - +1.5 Soft Attack
Support Anti-Air II - +1.75 Soft Attack
Support Anti-Air III - +2 Soft Attack
Support Engineer/Recon/MP I - +1.5 Soft Attack
Support Engineer/Recon/MP II - +3.0 Soft Attack
Support Engineer/Recon/MP III - +4.5 Soft Attack
Support Engineer/Recon/MP IV - +6.0 Soft Attack
 

bERt0r

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I guess you didn't read what I wrote. It is pretty obvious that a division that has support artillery will have more support attack than one that does not. No magic here. I am talking about efficiency. Maybe you think having 20 more soft attack in a division that already has 400 SA is worth the additional cost, including the research but I don't.
 

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I guess you didn't read what I wrote. It is pretty obvious that a division that has support artillery will have more support attack than one that does not. No magic here. I am talking about efficiency. Maybe you think having 20 more soft attack in a division that already has 400 SA is worth the additional cost, including the research but I don't.

Once again - Integrated Artillery 34 (Artillery I Equipment, Superior Firepower up to and including second integrated support)

9EB407AF620DC3389400AF3CD04F3991163589A4


Dispersed Artillery 34 (Artillery I Equipment, Superior Firepower up to and including second dispersed support doctrine)

97776BEA597649CCA053232AFEDAF43A9BF821D0



Integrated - 0.31 Soft Attack/IC
Dispersed - 0.25 Soft Attack/IC

And what research? You get the same research regardless of whether you go line or support and line or only support artillery.