Which countries to trade with as Germany

[Shatterfury]

I can see Churchill rising from the grave and telling you off right now XD. But in all seriousness now, no they couldn't really stop all the dutch ships, but I doubt they would just let them leave port.
BTW If Netherlands trades with Germany they could also trade with japan through dutch east indies, imagine all that sweet oil going to japan and they just attack USA/China/USSR.

Wouldn`t that just throw the Netherlands in Germany`s hands ?

Netherland needed to trade, not only rubber that Germany needs, everything from socks to lollipops to crack to condoms.

 

[PanosB3]

I doubt the UK would let Netherlands cooperate with Germany like Sweden/Switzerland did due to the fact that there are no limitations to how the UK can respond, they can just blockade. They couldn't interfere with Switzerland due to not bordering or having any way of monitoring them and same goes for Sweden. Whereas the Netherlands would be kinda easier for them to blockade, or even better conquer dutch east indies and drive them nuts till they stop trading with Germany XD.

 

[Shatterfury]

I doubt the UK would let Netherlands cooperate with Germany like Sweden/Switzerland did due to the fact that there are no limitations to how the UK can respond, they can just blockade. They couldn't interfere with Switzerland due to not bordering or having any way of monitoring them and same goes for Sweden. Whereas the Netherlands would be kinda easier for them to blockade, or even better conquer dutch east indies and drive them nuts till they stop trading with Germany XD.

They can`t really control all of Netherlands` trade with Germany.

If UK tries to take the Dutch East Indies by force they will throw the Dutch in Germany`s hand. Japan might counter invade and try to take the isles before UK.

Netherlands might not be big but more than enough to patrol France and free 10 German divisions of their duties.

 

[PanosB3]

Netherlands-Trading Fleet=Nothing
Netherlands vs English Blockade=Netherlands doomed
Dutch East Indies vs UK= Easy win for UK
Netherlands trading with Germany is the same as being allied for Germany as far as the allies are concerned....

Also patrol duties? Pretty much every country can do that.
Netherlands could change the war quite a lot if allied with Axis if you think about it though..... hmmmm

 

[frolix42]

Thanks, so Nationalist Spain to the Axis then. Any idea about other rubber producers?

Germany was so starved for rubber, Japan had submarines specially converted to carry rubber and other materials around the world. It was not very successful, but the fact that this got past the planning stage and was actually attempted is remarkable.

To apply this to HoI, I hope that global trade routes and blockades are a factor. Cargo-subs, I wouldn't mind if they were not in the game.

They can`t really control all of Netherlands` trade with Germany.

If UK tries to take the Dutch East Indies by force they will throw the Dutch in Germany`s hand. Japan might counter invade and try to take the isles before UK.

Netherlands might not be big but more than enough to patrol France and free 10 German divisions of their duties.

The British were successful in pressuring the Dutch not to trade (much) with Germany.
http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/netherlands_overseas_trust_not

I doubt the UK would let Netherlands cooperate with Germany like Sweden/Switzerland did due to the fact that there are no limitations to how the UK can respond, they can just blockade.

During WW1, the Nederlandsche Overzee Trustmaatschappij mandated that any merchant ships (incuding Dutch) that wanted to pass through the British blockade be inspected. Anyone wanting to import overseas goods into the Netherlands had to sign a contract with the NOT, promising not to re-export these goods to Germany or any of her allies, and pay a sizable deposit.

Satisfied with the Trust Company’s controls, the Allies allowed goods imported via the NOT to pass through its North Sea blockade of Germany, mandating only that any ship carrying these goods make a short stop in a British port for inspections. The businessmen who founded and controlled the NOT did demand an Allied favour in return for their cooperation, though: the exemption of several luxury Indies goods from the British contraband lists, which were sold via Holland in Germany at great profit. These exemptions suited the majority of NOT’s founding companies, heavily engaged in the Indies trade, quite well. NOT chairman van Aalst, for example, retained his presidency of the Dutch Trading Company, which was heavily engaged in shipping both coffee and tobacco from the Dutch East Indies.

If in an alternate timeline Nazi Germany respects the neutrality of the Netherlands, there would be real limit on how many raw resources the Dutch could provide Germany.

Sweden and Switzerland were de facto enclaves of Germany. They were more or less forced to trade exclusively with the Axis not only because they were afraid of being invaded, but they were cut off from the global marketplace. In 1944, once the strategic threat of invasion diminished drastically, the Swedes put the squeeze on the Germans financially. Nazi Germany didn't have much to export, Arms for Oil to Romania is an indication of this. Germany did export some coal, but they didn't have much to spare and that's not a hugely profitable resource. Coastal Netherlands would not be an enclave and actually selling resources to the US and UK would've been more profitable.

Who the Netherlands expects to export to is essentially a political decision. The British were by far the biggest importers of Romanian oil, despite the fact that Germany needed that oil much more than the UK, that is until Romania essentially joined the Axis in June 1940.

If Germany threatened the Netherlands in order to pressure them to sell large amounts of resources on credit, a situation similar to the Denmark/Iceland schism would almost certainly occur, something like a Plan R4 in the far-east. The British Invasion of Iceland did not lead Denmark into the Axis. If this were presaged by Germany essentially attempting to puppet the Netherlands to take their raw resources, I think it's possible that this would not lead the Netherlands into the Axis.

Netherlands could change the war quite a lot if allied with Axis if you think about it though..... hmmmm

I agree with you that the Dutch would lose all of their overseas possessions in a political instant. From the POV of an imperialist nation in 1940, you're working under the assumption that the colonial age would last a lot longer than it did.

 

[Snaggleooo]

I know I'm derailing the topic slightly, but do we know if trades can go by land as well as ship if there's a land connection. I'm especially considering Germany/Spain after the fall of France, where it would seem silly for the Spaniards to ship their resources across the Bay of Biscay and along the Channel past the Royal Navy when they could safely send them by train. Similarly, trade between Germany and Italy would be suicidal to go by sea at war.

 

[frolix42]

I know I'm derailing the topic slightly, but do we know if trades can go by land as well as ship if there's a land connection. I'm especially considering Germany/Spain after the fall of France, where it would seem silly for the Spaniards to ship their resources across the Bay of Biscay and along the Channel past the Royal Navy when they could safely send them by train. Similarly, trade between Germany and Italy would be suicidal to go by sea at war.

It shouldn't be a problem for Nationalist Spain to trade with Germany. If France is at war with Germany and not occupied, it should be a lot harder if not impossible.

 

[neusaap]

The British were successful in pressuring the Dutch not to trade (much) with Germany.
http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/netherlands_overseas_trust_not

It seems to me that the British were able to pressure Dutch companies into not trading with the Germans (and despite this the Dutch, like any neutral country in any world war, still re-exported products to the Germans, as neutral countries seem to use wars to earn as much money as they can)

a situation similar to the Denmark/Iceland schism would almost certainly occur, something like a Plan R4 in the far-east. The British Invasion of Iceland did not lead Denmark into the Axis. If this were presaged by Germany essentially attempting to puppet the Netherlands to take their raw resources, I think it's possible that this would not lead the Netherlands into the Axis.

I think there is a difference between Iceland and the east indies, Iceland didn't have any major amount of important raw resources and the Dutch thought at the time they needed their colony for economic reasons, apart from that, the Netherlands were extremely neutral until the Germans violated their neutrality, up to shooting down planes of both sides, so I think they would not like it if the British suddenly invaded their rich colony. I am almost certain that would've lead to the Netherlands joining the axis, or at the very least aligning to Germany and aiding them. Even if that were only because the public opinion in the Netherlands would become anti-british...

 

[frolix42]

It seems to me that the British were able to pressure Dutch companies into not trading with the Germans (and despite this the Dutch, like any neutral country in any world war, still re-exported products to the Germans, as neutral countries seem to use wars to earn as much money as they can)

Luxury items...not such a big deal in Hearts of Iron, especially once Germany is at war with the UK. Anything produced and manufactured in Netherlands probably you can make fair game to Germany. The things the Netherlands had that Germany actually wanted were raw materials, oil and Rubber from the Dutch East Indies which is what the Nederlandsche Overzee Trustmaatschappij was intended to regulate.

I think there is a difference between Iceland and the east indies, Iceland didn't have any major amount of important raw resources and the Dutch thought at the time they needed their colony for economic reasons, apart from that, the Netherlands were extremely neutral until the Germans violated their neutrality, up to shooting down planes of both sides, so I think they would not like it if the British suddenly invaded their rich colony. I am almost certain that would've lead to the Netherlands joining the axis, or at the very least aligning to Germany and aiding them. Even if that were only because the public opinion in the Netherlands would become anti-british...

I don't think it would come to that, unless the Netherlands player really wanted to boost Germany against their own interest.

Germany: "Extremely Neutral Netherlands, sell us your stuff."

Netherlands: "OK, we have an assortment of Tulips and Heineken, take your pick."

Germany: "We don't want that stuff. We need oil and rubber."

Netherlands: "What can you give us for those resources?"

Germany: "We can spare a bit of coal. Some older weapons. And Reich-marks, we'll pay you back after the war because we're totally going to win."

Netherlands: "Wow, that deal sounds...awesome. Why don't you buy oil from the Russians?"

Germany: "They want our steel and machine tools. We give them as little as possible because they are scary. We'd rather trade with you."

Netherlands: "Sadly our oil and rubber is overseas. You conquered our only other neighbor so the British Navy is not letting us import any for re-export. Get rid of that British Navy, then we'll deal."

*Germany fights Battle of Jutland 2.0*

Germany: "Smuggle stuff in and sell it to us."

Netherlands: "The British have a bunch of spies here, this is the spy capital of the world now. They'll find out and not let us import anything."

Germany: "UK is a bully. Join us and fight with us."

Netherlands: "I agree UK is a bully, but not even the United States wants to go to war in order to sell you stuff on credit. Besides, the UK is actively co-administering our colonies while this war is going on. We'll lose our colonies faster than you can say 'Italian Somaliland'"

Germany: "Gah! Give us oil or we will attack you!"

Netherlands: "Now who is a bully? You could attack us, and you'll win, but then you'll lose access to our domestic markets and you still won't get any raw resources."

Actually if the Netherlands insisted on trading raw resources with Germany, the Allies (UK + France) wouldn't have to seize Dutch shipping (though they probably would anyways). The allies could simply refuse to let the Dutch use their refueling stations and Dutch merchant ships wouldn't be able to reach the East-Indies.

 

[Ivan_W_S]

This is just speculation, but I don't think British blockading Dutch ships because they're neutral and selling resources to Germany will be modeled in the game. Unlike IRL, rubber may not be such a big problem for Germany.

 

[henzington]

USSR is a double edged sword as they will benefit from the IC when you invade them. It is hard to say if you can avoid trading with them all together yet since numbers aren't available yet.

 

[frolix42]

This is just speculation, but I don't think British blockading Dutch ships because they're neutral and selling resources to Germany will be modeled in the game. Unlike IRL, rubber may not be such a big problem for Germany.

Something that HoI4 could improve after release...

You have no control over who you export to, except you will not trade with anyone you are at war with. The amount of resources that are assigned to export depends on your trade laws which let your government demand resources for your own production. Embargos can be placed through certain national focuses as well to block trade.

Getting resources from another nation requires convoys, and it is always the buyer of goods that has to provide the convoys. Of course, this is all done automatically.

Each nation has a trade influence with another nation, which is depending on distance and relations, but can also be modified by placing troops on their borders to threaten them to trade to you before other nations. Any puppet nations are always forced to give up full trade rights to their masters.

Paradox is pretty smart. Blockades and trade restrictions based on the "NaviCert" system are hopefully inevitable in future "free patches" or DLC.

 

[joe9594]

I am amazed no one has mentioned that the absolute best nation to trade with as Germany is obviously Austria. Their resources are effectively free and they even produce oil (although maybe not enough to have a surplus and trade).

 

[teamgene]

Germany has an overabundance of steel and aluminium, but shortages in the other 4 resources. I know that USA and Soviet Union has oil, but trading with Romania is the safest (no reason to give your potential enemies more civilian IC).

In WWW2, Johan suggested Turkey to get chromium from and from DD 24, Turkey is a major chromium producer and since it has land connection to Germany, safe to trade with even during war. Or is the trade mechanics different now and you need to use convoys if you're not sharing border with the other country?

Rubber is mainly produced in South East Asia (UK, Netherlands) and South America (Brazil), so no good trading partner for rubber unless I decide to stay in peace with Netherlands. Sweden and Portugal should have tungsten, but is it in sufficient quantity for Germany's need?

Can anyone think of other countries to trade with as Germany, especially for tungsten. Who is the major producer for tungsten during World War 2?

In HOI3 German trade with Turkey required convoys as Turkey was considered in Asia so trade could not be over land.

 

[griffor]

I am amazed no one has mentioned that the absolute best nation to trade with as Germany is obviously Austria. Their resources are effectively free and they even produce oil (although maybe not enough to have a surplus and trade).

well u can annex them as soon as you have 60 divisions but prior to that it maybe smart to trade with them as they will develop their country more for you till of course you annex them same could be said for the czechs i would imagine

 

[joe9594]

well u can annex them as soon as you have 60 divisions but prior to that it maybe smart to trade with them as they will develop their country more for you till of course you annex them same could be said for the czechs i would imagine

Yeah in the WWW stream it took till mid 38 to annex Austria and that is most of the time in which you can do a lot of foreign trade before blockades come in (assuming you follow normal timetable). Also the primary czech lands e.g. Prague will probably not have your cores on them so factories there are worth less. With Austria you get 100% of the factories you traded them back because you inherit the land rather than annexing it.

 

[Ivan_W_S]

In HOI3 German trade with Turkey required convoys as Turkey was considered in Asia so trade could not be over land.

If DD 24 is still accurate Yugoslavia and Greece are main chromium producers, more reasons for Germany to get involved in the Balkans.

 

[shri]

Turkey can be considered a "special case" as in RL, once the war started, most of Turkey's trade happened via the Balkan Railways.

Spain, Switzerland, Turkey, Portugal, Sweden, the Balkan Nations and Italy are the best Trade partners alongwith Finland (Furs anyone??); also pre-war trading with Brazil for Rubber and USSR for other things is ok in limited quantities. Though i would trade with USSR only when no other options are available as i have to give my "civilian factories" for their use which will increase the quality of their troops and create problems for my Panzer groups during Barbarossa.

 

[sterrius]

Brazil traded with both US and Germany until the trade routes where totally blocked by the british and ended in a brazilian ship being sunk by a british ship.

Not that brazil was unwilling to risk sending more, but thanks to this Brazil got its steel industry and other benefits from US to help the allies and after 1942, with 7 ships sunk by the germans, enter in the war officialy.

 

[shri]

Yes, most neutrals were trading with everyone till the actual "firing war started" and this was in their own self-interest to do this trade.