Where do you want to go, Paradox?

[Imgran]

Yes, but currently that car can't move without paying for the new car's doodads, or the car is missing all of it's wheels, meaning you would have to buy more even though the free car was meant to come with those wheels, the same way that you CAN play without Common Sense, but colonization is completely useless, most of europe will still be less than 20 development (Meaning only 2 buildings per province) by 1820, while North and South America, along with probably Africa and Oceania which have 3 development per province. Meaning 1 building. Meaning natives can destroy your colonies no problem.

yep, this is what we mean when we say the game has been rebalanced very tightly around DLC exclusive features.

There needs to be a non-DLC way to improve development other than relying on random events. That's the only real way to salvage this IMHO.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Yes, but currently that car can't move without paying for the new car's doodads, or the car is missing all of it's wheels, meaning you would have to buy more even though the free car was meant to come with those wheels, the same way that you CAN play without Common Sense, but colonization is completely useless, most of europe will still be less than 20 development (Meaning only 2 buildings per province) by 1820, while North and South America, along with probably Africa and Oceania which have 3 development per province. Meaning 1 building. Meaning natives can destroy your colonies no problem.

This is completely wrong, though. There are a lot of plains and farmlands in Europe, which have many more than just 1 or 2 building slots. Furthermore, you can play the game without any problems without the DLC. It is not at all a good analogy to compare it to a car with no wheels, which can't take you anywhere-- such an analogy would imply the game does not load or play at all without the DLC, which isn't the case. Suggesting this analogy is pure hyperbole.

 

[Rain Envy]

I don't know why so many people have a problem with DLC. Common Sense isn't exactly expensive. Just buy it, job done. What's the problem?

I actually agree with this. These DLCs are pretty much expansion packs. People are lucky that they are able to get free patches/updates at all. If you don't like the change play the earlier patch. They give you that option.

 

[Imgran]

The gimping to New World colonies is very real though. That does affect game balance, especially among the big European colonizers, who seem much more sluggish both in Europe and in the ROTW.

 

[spinoza013]

This really should have been called EUIV 2.0

There really wasn't enough shiny (outside core game overhaul) given to merit a standard $15 DLC charge but the work and effort has to be remunerated so much of the overhaul had to be included as DLC only.

Businesses need cash flow and turnover just to maintain staff and cover overheads way before any profit is even realised.

This is why I feel it should have been marketed as 2.0 and an essential DLC expansion.

It's arguably the first essential DLC. I advise you to buy it and accept the reality of the situation.

I sympathise with people who are satisfied with the older version and would rather keep that. ( you could have done by saving to a seperate folder) but time moves on.

 

[Infernalknight]

These analogies become more and more ridiculous. Without even delving into the logic (or lack thereof), comparing things that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to a fifteen dollar video game expansion is pretty absurd.

 

[Imgran]

what gets me about this is the thought/fear/fact that anything that happens once is going to happen again. At what point does "it's just $15" fly out the window when we've told PDS with our wallets that we're fine with this, only to have it happen again and again and then a few more times? I thought I was buying a game, not subscribing to one!

I've bought DLC's. In fact I have most of the feature pack DLC's (ED/CoP/RP/AoW/etc...). And I'm probably going to buy Common Sense eventually, but this is a bad way to make $15 bucks off a player IMHO. I'm disappointed that the Paradox team decided to handle things this way.

 

[ThatGuyYouKnow1]

This is completely wrong, though. There are a lot of plains and farmlands in Europe, which have many more than just 1 or 2 building slots. Furthermore, you can play the game without any problems without the DLC. It is not at all a good analogy to compare it to a car with no wheels, which can't take you anywhere-- such an analogy would imply the game does not load or play at all without the DLC, which isn't the case. Suggesting this analogy is pure hyperbole.

Alright, I was just using your example to make mine, even if mine might've been exaggerated, that doesn't change the fact that past 1550, this game is unplayable for colonization, and pretty much everyone outside of Asia and Europe. Even if you get the occasional 3-4 buildings from farmlands, it doesn't change the fact that I used to be able to build as much as I liked. Yes, I can revert to 1.11, but I like the new features and just want it to be playable until I get enough spare cash to buy Common Sense. I just don't like feeling like I am being forced to buy the DLC to play a game I payed ~60 $ to get.

If the car example is absurd, let's change it to a drink. You payed quite a lot of money for your, say, wine bottle, however you only get the bottom half of the wine bottle and the top gets broken off, along with all of the wine inside of it, unless you pay the manager of the store to fix it for you. (This probably makes no sense, but saying that you need to pay to open it would make you say the same thing you said for the car.)

 

[superrayman]

I am pretty sure it's a good idea of Paradox to wait with reacting until the initial emotions boil down a bit. Trying to reason with someone who just had a major disappointment on the internet is usually not gonna work (no offence intended to anyone here). This doesn't mean that it never works, but with the amount of people able to react and considering how often it goes wrong (raging, blaming, belittling), it's probably best to wait. Let people think it over and get a more realistic point of view.

I can understand that without DLC playing a country outside of Europe can be a pain, since you can't build any building in most places (aside from the fortress, which you kinda need here and there). But on the other hand, you can simply set the game to a previous version. Since you can't develop without CS, the difference between the system in CS is pretty similar to the old base tax system in that case. So what's the big deal there?

Last thing I would like to add. Paradox is, in my opinion, extremely generous considering DLCs. If you play the multiplayer, you can play with all the DLCs if the host has them. You get still a lot of free updates and a top of that, you can even revert to an older version of the game without going to shady sites (8 different ones at the moment, of which 6 with achievements still available). Considering the many greedy gaming practises out there, I think that with Paradox you got the better end of the deal, but that could be just me.

 

[Imgran]

Reverting is a way to avoid the problem, as long as avoiding the problem was a solution.

Avoiding a problem is never a solution.

 

[Imgran]

Considering the many greedy gaming practises out there, I think that with Paradox you got the better end of the deal, but that could be just me.

yes I agree, which is exactly why this development is so disappointing. you see here most if not all of the same rationale that many of thoe greedy gaming companies ue to justify their antics, leading us all to worry about what happens if we permit this patch to create a precedent. And this is Paradox, which is usually very successful at avoiding problems like this making you wonder if maybe just maybe the philosophy is changing, and what that might signify for the EUIV title we love (and have already paid for)

 

[spinoza013]

It's worth remembering the people that have bought the DLC's have paid for all the free features everyone that installed 1.0 are now enjoying.

 

[RobRoy3]

Development is over rated.

I don't care whether development is part of the DLC or the patch, it simply isn't worth the points unless you are far ahead on tech and ideas, conquest remains far better.

While that may be true in some cases, it is not true in all cases. Moreover, people without the DLC aren't able to assess the cost-benefit for themselves.

But if Development truly isn't worth it, why not throw it in for free? Paradox's decision moves from "bad call" to "really stupid", in that case.

The dlc system right now works for ck2. Half works for EU4. Will it work for HOI4? Personally I doubt it as it's a wargame, and everyone has to be on the same rules.

I'm skeptical that your alternative would work, but I'm EXTREMELY skeptical that this DLC model can work for HOI4. The sheer volume of rule changes in CK2 and EU4 is already irritating, the saving grace is that you often (but not always) have a product that is at least a bit better than the previous version, when considered in the aggregate. You simply can't change the rules in a pure wargame that frequently. And given how big of a clusterf*** HOI3 was, on release, I'm not going to be so foolish as to give them the benefit of the doubt, or to assume that they'll work the bugs out in a couple of weeks.

...making you wonder if maybe just maybe the philosophy is changing,...

Honestly, I don't think you need to wonder. Actions speak far louder than words. It is changing, it has been changing. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Now they just have to stop trying to delude themselves, and us, and just embrace that fact.

 

[Imgran]

It's worth remembering the people that have bought the DLC's have paid for all the free features everyone that installed 1.0 are now enjoying.

And so are the ones that bought the base game. It's all dollars, they all wound up in PDS's accounts somewhere.

 

[spinoza013]

Let's go back to the car analogy. If you buy a car you expect free mechanic service 2 years later?

 

[ponasozis]

This really should have been called EUIV 2.0

There really wasn't enough shiny (outside core game overhaul) given to merit a standard $15 DLC charge but the work and effort has to be remunerated so much of the overhaul had to be included as DLC only.

Businesses need cash flow and turnover just to maintain staff and cover overheads way before any profit is even realised.

This is why I feel it should have been marketed as 2.0 and an essential DLC expansion.

It's arguably the first essential DLC. I advise you to buy it and accept the reality of the situation.

I sympathise with people who are satisfied with the older version and would rather keep that. ( you could have done by saving to a seperate folder) but time moves on.

you can always revert back to older version of the game using steam options

 

[DukeDayve]

You can't develop provinces without the expansion but I think Paradox will change this due to the incessant whining on the forums. I'd like to make two points though.

1. You buy these Paradox games knowing that there will be a lot of DLC's. Buy the DLC. It's like the price of 3 or 4 cups of coffee and will last you a literal life time.

2. Expanding in to America, or anywhere for that matter, if you don't have the expansion will still make you more powerful. You'll still get more manpower, you'll still get more tax, you'll still get a higher force limit due to increase in land mass, just like you would before. I really don't see the problem here. So you're limited to one building in some provinces - so what? Just build strategically. Good trade resource? Build a production building. Good manpower? Build a barracks. Good tax? Build a temple. And so on.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Judging by the patch notes, they seem to imply that buying Common Sense -also- unlocks National Focus. So you should still have it if you bought Res Publica, but not Common Sense. If I'm wrong, that's a pretty messed up change-- and would actually be worthy of an outcry, as you lost something you paid for.

Again you have completely missed the point. The poster stated the reason he bought Res Publica was precisely (and virtually only because) it unlocked National Focus. CS provides the feature also, so he feels out of pocket buying Res Publica.

Aye.

 

[lokiey0000000]

It's not! Because you can download one 1.12 patch, which is made (apparently) under the assumption that you are going to have CS to go with it, but isn't advertised as such nor needs it. Many are being said "roll back to 1.11", which is not a legitimate suggestion, under the current position on DLC; because shouldn't the patch be as fun and playable as the DLC? But it isn't.

So, I say that they should either go back to the older model of "shiny things in DLC, core stuff in patch" (which might have been a failure for them, though), or stop the patches if you don't buy the DLC, effectively going back to the old expansion model without having people (rightfully) complaining that their complete game has been changed into a maimed game. Which is what happens already if you roll back to an older patch.

You say stop the patches without the dlc. How is this any different than you just rolling back to the last patch, which you call "not a legitimate suggestion"?

I honestly don't get how people can be all up in arms about having stuff "taken away" from them when the exact same game they were playing before is still available.

Why is rolling back to the previous, perfectly playable, patch not a legitimate suggestion to someone who doesn't like the features of the new patch? How is the previous patch all of a sudden maimed now that a new one has come out?

 

[Imgran]

Let's go back to the car analogy. If you buy a car you expect free mechanic service 2 years later?

No, but if they offered an extended service plan as part of the package to entice me to buy it, and I was using it quite happily when they asked me to bring the car in for routine maintenance, and as I was driving home something went wrong after the grease monkeys had been under the hood and it turned out that fixing that new problem WOULD cost me since it's not under the extended service plan, and I suspected but could not prove the new problems were the fault of the guys at the dealership, you could safely describe me as annoyed, even if the repairs didn't hit my wallet very hard..