Where do you want to go, Paradox?

[AlphaSonic]

Really? Complaining about integrating Sweden?
I can understand being upset because Development feel a integral part of the game and without the DLC the New World provinces are trash and you can't build everywhere. But complaining about integrating Sweden? Do you need Common Sense to invade LO/TO and integrate Norway and Holstein? Do you need Common Sense to defeat their revolt and weakning them? This is the stupidest complaint out of all. Although I agreee about development increase being too tied with 1.12 Vanilla game.

 

[BFTeixeira]

However, how valid are discussions of how development works or doesn't before people have actually seen it in the final implementation?
I certainly wouldn't consider them to have much foundation until people had handled it and played for a few days to see how it works. Once that's been done, then it can be sensibly discussed between users and staff.

Then there are the rants that people post up that basically come down to "you've ruined the game and made it so that the AI can use the features I can't!" (which isn't true...), and demands for refunds due to fraud... How do you sensibly deal with that?

That's like you buying a house, seeing that the foundations are all wrong, and the contractor telling you to wait for the house being finished to discuss the matter.

About "rant", first no one ever used the point you said (quite handy to say that because THAT would be just stupid).

 

[WeissRaben]

Really? Complaining about integrating Sweden?
I can understand being upset because Development feel a integral part of the game and without the DLC the New World provinces are trash and you can't build everywhere. But complaining about integrating Sweden? Do you need Common Sense to invade LO/TO and integrate Norway and Holstein? Do you need Common Sense to defeat their revolt and weakning them? This is the stupidest complaint out of all. Although I agreee about development increase being too tied with 1.12 Vanilla game.

It's quite obvious that it doesn't make the complaint on its own, but the 50-LD threshold looks quite likely designed around the chance to lower it via prestige. You can use other methods, true, just like plastering the whole of North America in colonies will still give you a powerful nation.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

There is a lot of issues at work here, at a fundamental level, with how Paradox handled their expansions (DLC).

In the past before the advent of DLC, adding new features was done solely through paid expansions. You would have to buy the expansion to get any of the new features and additions, otherwise you received nothing except maybe a bug fix/compatibility patch. Lots of games still go this route when it comes to major changes, and offer smaller, bite sized additions as DLC.

Paradox handles expansions differently now, largely as a token of goodwill to the player base. Someone who has only purchased the core game can continue to receive lots of free additions that expand the game in new ways, without having to ever pay Paradox again. Very few companies do this outside of MMOs, or developers who really bungled their game and want to fix major issues. By and large, this is a very good thing Paradox does, otherwise we would all have to buy every expansion to get anything that the vanilla game doesn't offer.

Lots of people complain about this, though, and see it as a paywall, which I don't quite get. We are receiving free stuff and frequent updates. If Paradox gave away everything in the DLC in the free patch then they'd never make any money. I'm not entirely sure where the sentiment comes from, but that's just my lack of understanding, I guess. But I can see where this chafes people, since there's a bunch of buttons they can't click.

From what I can tell, the baseline development of the world is a lot similar to what it was before Common Sense. So really, not being able to develop your provinces doesn't change a lot if you don't have the DLC. I am not sure if the AI is allowed to do so or not, but if it does, then you can just conquer their land (or acquire vassals) as a work-around to development.

While it would be great if all of the expansions were free, Paradox does need a flow of income to continue to improve and expand EU4. DLCs are by and large cheaper than the expansions of the past, which tended to fall around the $30+ range, and offer less. Plus there wouldn't be any free content patches.

 

[AlphaSonic]

It's quite obvious that it doesn't make the complaint on its own, but the 50-LD threshold looks quite likely designed around the chance to lower it via prestige. You can use other methods, true, just like plastering the whole of North America in colonies will still give you a powerful nation.

But in 1.11 it existed the problem too.

 

[Imgran]

Really? Complaining about integrating Sweden?
I can understand being upset because Development feel a integral part of the game and without the DLC the New World provinces are trash and you can't build everywhere. But complaining about integrating Sweden? Do you need Common Sense to invade LO/TO and integrate Norway and Holstein? Do you need Common Sense to defeat their revolt and weakning them? This is the stupidest complaint out of all. Although I agreee about development increase being too tied with 1.12 Vanilla game.

I disagree about the Sweden thing too, the otions to make dealing with truculent vassals easier being DLC-only is borderline, but not big enough to fight over in my opinion, DLC issues are going to be treading on that particular line no matter what the developers do.

The real issue to me is that there needs to be a development substitude for the base game. Like the watered down CN's and other examples of Paradox, even when premium features were reserved for DLC owners, going out of their way to make sure that what they were doing did not wreck the balance for core players.

They slipped up here not necessarily by keeping development out of core players' hands, so much as not giving them anything else to replace it with, no watered down kinda-sorta-Developent, instead you have 3 buttons you can't press that you know exactly what you could do if you could press them and no other way to even do 50% o what pressing them would do. That's the literal definition of a paywall.

 

[BFTeixeira]

There is a lot of issues at work here, at a fundamental level, with how Paradox handled their expansions (DLC).

In the past, before the advent of DLC, adding new features was done solely through paid expansions. You would have to buy the expansion to get any of the new features and additions, otherwise, you received nothing, except maybe a bug fix/compatibility patch. Lots of games still go this route, when it comes to major changes, and offer smaller, bite sized additions as DLC.

Paradox handles expansions differently now, largely as a token of goodwill to the playerbase. Someone who has only purchased the core game can continue to receive lots of free additions that expand the game in new ways, without having to ever pay Paradox again. Very few companies do this outside of MMOs, or developers who really bungled their game and want to fix major issues. By and large, this is a very good thing Paradox does, otherwise we would all have to buy every expansion to get anything that the vanilla game doesn't offer.

Lots of people complain about this, though, and see it as a paywall, which I don't quite get, since these people are receiving free stuff and frequent updates, just not all of the DLC (or Paradox will not ever make any money). I'm not entirely sure where the sentiment comes from, but that's just my lack of understanding, I guess. But I can see where this chafes people, since there's a bunch of buttons they can't click.

From what I can tell, the baseline development of the world is a lot similar to what it was before Common Sense. So really, not being able to develop your provinces doesn't change a lot if you don't have the DLC. I am not sure if the AI is allowed to do so or not, but if it does, then you can just conquer their land (or acquire vassals) as a work-around to development.

While it would be great if all of the expansions were free, Paradox does need a flow of income to continue to improve and expand EU4. DLCs are by and large cheaper than the expansions of the past, which tended to fall around the $30+ range, and offer less, and there were no free content patches, either.

The point is that the free patch needs the DLC. That's not what Pdx pledged about this system when they started it.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

The point is that the free patch needs the DLC. That's not what Pdx pledged about this system when they started it.

The free patch doesn't need the DLC, though. You can play the game just fine without development. There isn't anything stopping you. Plus, you also have the option to revert to previous patches if you don't like the changes.

 

[WeissRaben]

The free patch doesn't need the DLC, though. You can play the game just fine without development. There isn't anything stopping you. Plus, you also have the option to revert to previous patches if you don't like the changes.

Reverting to a previous patch is basically playing Heir to the Throne without buying Divine Wind: no patch, no DLC. Which is fine, but it's not the announced system. And the current patch, as much as you can try to deny it, has been balanced around Common Sense: North America is the greatest victim, of course.

 

[Witto]

I don't know why so many people have a problem with DLC. Common Sense isn't exactly expensive. Just buy it, job done. What's the problem?

Yeah man, fuck poor people am I right?
I don't know why so many people have a problem with car malfunction. Aston Martin isn't expensive, just buy it, job done.

 

[Dnote]

I think colonies and colonisation are a separate issue, they were simply nerfed hard, whether you have the DLC or not.

I don't care whether development is part of the DLC or the patch, it simply isn't worth the points unless you are far ahead on tech and ideas, conquest remains far better.

 

[Imgran]

The free patch doesn't need the DLC, though.

Doesn't quite need it no, but it's balanced very tightly around DLC-exclusive features, especially development but not just Development.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Why are people complaining about car malfunctions and messed up horses? The analogies to Common Sense don't even add up.

The DLC isn't a malfunction, and comparing it to "buying a car that malfunctions" or "a horse with problems" is just silly. If you didn't buy Common Sense, why are you complaining about a car you didn't buy? Or a horse that wasn't yours? "But I bought the base game and other DLC!" Well, you can revert to those expansions/patches which you paid for just fine. There is nothing broken about it.

A more fitting analogy would be, "The car dealership sells cars, but also gives away free cars, they're just an older model without all of the new fancy doodads." or "The house contractor added a bunch of free additions to my house, but said he could add more if I paid him" ?

Why are we complaining about free stuff? Would you rather there be no patch at all unless you buy the DLC?

 

[D-A-C]

I'm all for pointing out faults with the latest DLC to get things improved. But with regard to the points you raise I think:

 

[ero_sk]

What hit me personally the most is the National Focus included in Common Sense. So I paid for Res Publica and National Focus was one of the main (very few) reasons to buy that expansion and now I find out that this is being given as part of Common Sense. Something is really wrong here. I like Paradox games but everything has its limits. This plus the argument raised by OP makes me not buying recent expansion (I didn't buy El Dorado either). Just my opinion though.

 

[Imgran]

Why are people complaining about car malfunctions and messed up horses? The analogies to Common Sense don't even add up.

The DLC isn't a malfunction, and comparing it to "buying a car that malfunctions" or "a horse with problems" is just silly. If you didn't buy Common Sense, why are you complaining about a car you didn't buy? Or a horse that wasn't yours? "But I bought the base game and other DLC!" Well, you can revert to those expansions/patches which you paid for just fine. There is nothing broken about it.

A more fitting analogy would be, "The car dealership sells cars, but also gives away free cars, they're just an older model without all of the new fancy doodads."

Why are we complaining about free stuff? Would you rather there be no patch at all unless you buy the DLC?

Something weird has been happening with reverting the latest patch. One guy was reporting that a few game features were pretty seriously brokeh when he tried to revert to 1.11. That being the case reverting becomes particularly unattractiveand smugly holding that out as an option is an exercise in missing the point on a galactic scale.

 

[Beagá]

Yeah man, fuck poor people am I right?
I don't know why so many people have a problem with car malfunction. Aston Martin isn't expensive, just buy it, job done.

Luxury product is luxury product.

Games are luxury products.

Your point about Aston Martin makes zero sense. Pity certain kind of common sense can´t be bought.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

What hit me personally the most is the National Focus included in Common Sense. So I paid for Res Publica and National Focus was one of the main (very few) reasons to buy that expansion and now I find out that this is being given as part of Common Sense. Something is really wrong here. I like Paradox games but everything has its limits. This plus the argument raised by OP makes me not buying recent expansion (I didn't buy El Dorado either). Just my opinion though.

Judging by the patch notes, they seem to imply that buying Common Sense -also- unlocks National Focus. So you should still have it if you bought Res Publica, but not Common Sense. If I'm wrong, that's a pretty messed up change-- and would actually be worthy of an outcry, as you lost something you paid for.

 

[ThatGuyYouKnow1]

A more fitting analogy would be, "The car dealership sells cars, but also gives away free cars, they're just an older model without all of the new fancy doodads."

Yes, but currently that car can't move without paying for the new car's doodads, or the car is missing all of it's wheels, meaning you would have to buy more even though the free car was meant to come with those wheels, the same way that you CAN play without Common Sense, but colonization is completely useless, most of europe will still be less than 20 development (Meaning only 2 buildings per province) by 1820, while North and South America, along with probably Africa and Oceania which have 3 development per province. Meaning 1 building. Meaning natives can destroy your colonies no problem.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

The dlc system right now works for ck2. Half works for EU4. Will it work for HOI4? Personally I doubt it as it's a wargame, and everyone has to be on the same rules.

What if HOI 4 paradox tried something new and more flexible? What if expansions were funded by a kickstarter like arrangement? During the funding drive some ideas would be pitched to the player base about potential directions for the next expansion cycle, and players could vote with their wallets what would be developed. The vote would be non binding "suggestions", as sometimes an idea after development can be clearly seen to be flawed. If insufficient funds are collected then pdox just fixes bugs on the current version and does minor balance changes.

Thoughts? Could it work?