Where do you want to go, Paradox?

[blallo]

No doubt it's a financial success, yet it hardly concerns the consumer. Veteran consumer on a mid-long term will be driven away (played EU2/3, HOI2/3, CK2, vicki2, never got this feeling of being robbed), and new commers on a short term having to pay 150$ to play a game... good luck with that Johan. Oh... you'll launch EUV... Don't even get how people adoube this... and this is the right place to criticize this policy (where else?).

Edited for some misspelling, sure there are others, not my native language so...

yeah that is not how the games market works,

the whole video is really good,go to 24.00 where he explain what they have done to a game considered good and what the result where.

They done everything contained in the "bad thing to do" book and they got rich.
People complained, but at the end of the game they were still playing.

same thing here, people complain, but at the end of the day, they still play.

and other people will play as well.

The only thing that paradox should do is to fix the dlc names in the steam page adding the [expansion], [music] and [cosmetic] prefix, since it's a mess and it took me 20 minutes to buy everything.

people will notice that it's not 190 euro, and everyone is going to be happy.

bwt old versions of the game are available on steam, so if people don't like the current vanilla they can switch back to the first released, which is what they bought.

 

[FrigidSoul]

No doubt it's a financial success, yet it hardly concerns the consumer. Veteran consumer on a mid-long term will be driven away (played EU2/3, HOI2/3, CK2, vicki2, never got this feeling of being robbed), and new commers on a short term having to pay 150$ to play a game... good luck with that Johan. Oh... you'll launch EUV... Don't even get how people adoube this... and this is the right place to criticize this policy (where else?).

Edited for some misspelling, sure there are others, not my native language so...

So the model's financially successful, but it drives away long-term customers and intimidates new ones.

All of those things can't be true.

 

[Zwentibold]

Abide by it? Dont even get how people tolerate this makes the most sense i think.

What I tryed to mean...

I'm fairly certain that you can purchase the game for about $20 when it's on sale.

Considering the number of sales and continued players per steam data, consumers haven't been driven away.

If the current model is driving you away, fine, but don't project your individual feelings to a consumer base that quite obviously doesn't agree with you.

20 bucks for the vanilla eventually, yet hardly (40 € on steam full price, bought it some months ago on a rare 30% discount or so, as paradox doesnt seam to have the same high and frequent discount policy on this title). For half a game released 2 years ago... The full package is (for now) 93 € (118 for separate items). not that anybody would need the full package to enjoy the game (this policy of separating soundtracks and graphics from dlcs already drove of a few people, don't care that much about that, but they lost my respect), but to enjoy the game you need at least one major dlc (15 €), more if you plan to play republic or others... for now...

I'm pretty sure this entire policy will drive their customer base away... and new consumers will think about it twice. That's EU, you're supposed to be free and plan objectives as you see fit, not to be told every now and then "you can't do that whithout paying the toll", or even revamping the mechanics to force you to pay the toll. I call that extortion.

 

[Zwentibold]

yeah that is not how the games market works,

They done everything contained in the "bad thing to do" book and they got rich.
People complained, but at the end of the game they were still playing.

same thing here, people complain, but at the end of the day, they still play.

Is that why we shouldn't care? "They're greedy parasite killing gaming industry but hey, it's how industry works" ? This particular model is designed for free to play (advertising games), Paradox (shame on them) tries to push it.

 

[Zwentibold]

So the model's financially successful, but it drives away long-term customers and intimidates new ones.

All of those things can't be true.

"mid-long term" and "short term" (should have add relatively short term). Of course people bought the game and want to play it, so most buy the first few expantions. So it is a financial succes now. Yet in the long run it hurts Paradox's credibility and people like me (no I'm not unique) and others will be driven off. Wait and see.

 

[Rain Envy]

Is that why we shouldn't care? "They're greedy parasite killing gaming industry but hey, it's how industry works" ? This particular model is designed for free to play (advertising games), Paradox (shame on them) tries to push it.

Games need money to survive. It's a business. Ever since I got a job I have had no issues with continuing to pay for paradox games... or any games for that matter. When you fork out more money to a company they will continue to appease you with new features and development. When the money well goes down it's time to work on something else. I will only admit that the price of getting into EU or CK is quite menacing as there are lot of things that come up that make it a 100-150 dollar game due to all the DLC. Thankfully Paradox tends to put all their other stuff on sale when new expansion packs are released and special holidays routinely.

 

[fraesp29]

Oh my god, is this still going on? Surely what we need now is another DLC or at least a patch tweaking AE so at least there's something new to complain about.

 

[Zwentibold]

Games need money to survive. It's a business. Ever since I got a job I have had no issues with continuing to pay for paradox games... or any games for that matter. When you fork out more money to a company they will continue to appease you with new features and development. When the money well goes down it's time to work on something else. I will only admit that the price of getting into EU or CK is quite menacing as there are lot of things that come up that make it a 100-150 dollar game due to all the DLC. Thankfully Paradox tends to put all their other stuff on sale when new expansion packs are released and special holidays routinely.

Thought games were art but whatever (next thing you'll say is "music is a business")...

That's been quite some times I didn't see a big paradox sale (like 75 or 50%), and never for EUIV... Yet EUIV is incomplete without DLCs, while CK2 is ok... as you're not blocked in your progression whatsoever, you're restricted at the beginning of the game and that's it (that's why I own most of CK2 dlcs, except the last ones and the aztec fantazy, and why I won't touch EUIV again).

 

[fraesp29]

Thought games were art but whatever (next thing you'll say is "music is a business")...

Both Roger Ebert (RIP) and German legislators would beg to differ.

 

[Zwentibold]

Both Roger Ebert (RIP) and German legislators would beg to differ.

Hehe... Yet us gamers can adopt a legitimate point of view, and condemn companies that are a treason to art (and as far as I get what Johan meant, Paradox could make the list)

 

[NightKev]

What does games being art or not have to do with anything...?

 

[blallo]

Is that why we shouldn't care? "They're greedy parasite killing gaming industry but hey, it's how industry works" ? This particular model is designed for free to play (advertising games), Paradox (shame on them) tries to push it.

You did not understood the video. The point of it was that when they did an unpopular change to the game

• Everyone kept playing, even user who sent death threats
• The number of new user was the same
• The number of leaving user was the same
• Everyone was complaining on forums.

So the only explanation is :
People liked, or didn't cared about changes but they thought they were angry

The small fraction who left wasn't rappresentative of the player Base, forums are not rappresentative as well.

And the idea that this practice ruins the industry is a false. Video game industry increased thanks to free to play model.

And paradox is not going for that model. They more like wow, where there is a monthly fee if you want the new content.
40 euro at year is extremely low.

 

[Zwentibold]

You did not understood the video. The point of it was that when they did an unpopular change to the game

I did understand the point of the video : brainwashed people keep playing. Is it some business policy? I guess it is...
Edit: Surely Paradox model...

2nd edit : yet as your video showed, forums are worthless as they only take into account a minority of dedicated gamers... That's some spirit...

 

[Chieron]

I did understand the point of the video : brainwashed people keep playing. Is it some business policy? I guess it is...
Edit: Surely Paradox model...

2nd edit : yet as your video showed, forums are worthless as they only take into account a minority of dedicated gamers... That's some spirit...

The video showed that people complain about every change, but don't really follow up on their threats.
Really, DLCs are a pretty good model to improve a game without forcing everyone to upgrade. And to earn money for the company, while not forcing the players to pay for a bucketload of expansions upfront.

This thread originally was about the Common Sense DLC not properly following the DLC pattern. That is, without it, part of the vanilla game is somewhat broken, making Common Sense closer to a classic expansion. Expansions requiring all previous expansions to work and get patched is far worse. Paradox should just take more care when redesigning mechanics that they do not break them.

So.. non-CS EU4 should still get something similar to the development system so that MP can be spend and buildings constructed. The game can start with Free Cities, but no new ones should be generated or the no-CS IA should be rebalanced (compensating for lower IA).

 

[blallo]

I did understand the point of the video : brainwashed people keep playing. Is it some business policy? I guess it is...
Edit: Surely Paradox model...

2nd edit : yet as your video showed, forums are worthless as they only take into account a minority of dedicated gamers... That's some spirit...

Well, I can't prove they are not brainwashed, but I believe that if people keep playing they like the game.

If they like it and they say they don't, they are delusional and you shouldn't listen to them. Sometimes forums are like that, sometimes are not.
In this case they are

 

[Zwentibold]

The video showed that people complain about every change, but don't really follow up on their threats.
Really, DLCs are a pretty good model to improve a game without forcing everyone to upgrade. And to earn money for the company, while not forcing the players to pay for a bucketload of expansions upfront.

This thread originally was about the Common Sense DLC not properly following the DLC pattern. That is, without it, part of the vanilla game is somewhat broken, making Common Sense closer to a classic expansion. Expansions requiring all previous expansions to work and get patched is far worse. Paradox should just take more care when redesigning mechanics that they do not break them.

So.. non-CS EU4 should still get something similar to the development system so that MP can be spend and buildings constructed. The game can start with Free Cities, but no new ones should be generated or the no-CS IA should be rebalanced (compensating for lower IA).

I could totally agree with that... adding that non-CS users shouldn't have CS options shown as available when they're not (my main and only complain really)

 

[WeissRaben]

Oh my god, is this still going on? Surely what we need now is another DLC or at least a patch tweaking AE so at least there's something new to complain about.

I know, right? Johan replied pages ago to my original question.

 

[thegreatuniter]

Development is nice, but it really is an alternative playstyle mostly, and not a necessary part of any playstyle, as some people who don't have the expansion seem to think. And as an added playstyle, or feature, it is justified to be put in an expansion. However, i do agree that the historical rival modifier for liberty desire is a bit harsh for players who don't own the expansion, and it might be fair to tone it down just a little bit. Thoughts?

 

[Chieron]

Development is nice, but it really is an alternative playstyle mostly, and not a necessary part of any playstyle, as some people who don't have the expansion seem to think. And as an added playstyle, or feature, it is justified to be put in an expansion.

1) Development is a viable monarch point sink, just like buildings were before. getting more building slots does help, too. Lacking point sinks is bad.
2) We are on page 19 of this thread, maybe you should learn the terms before posting. You do not mean an expansion but a DLC-only feature. As that distinction is part of the point of the thread, don't mix it up.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

No doubt it's a financial success, yet it hardly concerns the consumer. Veteran consumer on a mid-long term will be driven away (played EU2/3, HOI2/3, CK2, vicki2, never got this feeling of being robbed), and new commers on a short term having to pay 150$ to play a game... good luck with that Johan. Oh... you'll launch EUV... Don't even get how people adoube this... and this is the right place to criticize this policy (where else?).

Edited for some misspelling, sure there are others, not my native language so...

As opposed to EUIII, which by the end required you to buy the base game and several expansions to keep current and to get new patches, as opposed to being able to continue receiving new patches and content as is currently the case without having to buy the DLC?

What I tryed to mean...



20 bucks for the vanilla eventually, yet hardly (40 € on steam full price, bought it some months ago on a rare 30% discount or so, as paradox doesnt seam to have the same high and frequent discount policy on this title). For half a game released 2 years ago... The full package is (for now) 93 € (118 for separate items). not that anybody would need the full package to enjoy the game (this policy of separating soundtracks and graphics from dlcs already drove of a few people, don't care that much about that, but they lost my respect), but to enjoy the game you need at least one major dlc (15 €), more if you plan to play republic or others... for now...

I'm pretty sure this entire policy will drive their customer base away... and new consumers will think about it twice. That's EU, you're supposed to be free and plan objectives as you see fit, not to be told every now and then "you can't do that whithout paying the toll", or even revamping the mechanics to force you to pay the toll. I call that extortion.

Or... £30 (ish) for the core game of EUIII, about £20 per expansion (if you could find somewhere carrying them), or perhaps if you were internet connected and had sufficient download limit, you might be able to get them in a sale, or as a complete package. Of course, if you didn't buy the expansions, you would be left behind, and be unable to get further patches - and more to the point, all the expansions required the previous ones, unlike the current DLC which are independent of each other.