Where do you want to go, Paradox?

[taltamir]

Also lets not forget that now there are fewer but more powerful buildings in game.

I agree with your entire post except this line.
The buildings are only more powerful in a highly developed province, but if you don't develop (because its a total worthless waste of mana) then the buildings are massive hugely ridiculously weaker than before. because flat bonuses were replaced with % bonuses that scale based on development. and a newly colonized 1-1-1 province is simply too pathetic to be worth building anything other than a manufactory in unless you develop it first

 

[DanubianCossak]

I agree with your entire post except this line.
The buildings are only more powerful in a highly developed province, but if you don't develop (because its a total worthless waste of mana) then the buildings are massive hugely ridiculously weaker than before. because flat bonuses were replaced with % bonuses that scale based on development. and a newly colonized 1-1-1 province is simply too pathetic to be worth building anything other than a manufactory in unless you develop it first

Thats why you dont build % modifiers buildings in 1-1-1. Instead you build trade stuff (for example) or you build stuff that gives you +land force limit. Personally though, i rarely have money to build both in high development provinces AND low development ones. Some buildings cost a lot of money now.

 

[taltamir]

Thats why you dont build % modifiers buildings in 1-1-1.

Obviously I don't either, however I disagree with your assertion of building being better because the vast majority of the world is 1-1-1. The exception is europe and some capitals. And those are not all that much better either

Personally though, i rarely have money to build both in high development provinces AND low development ones. Some buildings cost a lot of money now.

Build manufactures everywhere and you will be swimming in money. I do mean everywhere.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Obviously I don't either, however I disagree with your assertion of building being better because the vast majority of the world is 1-1-1. The exception is europe and some capitals. And those are not all that much better either

If you take away non colonized provinces, most of the world doesnt seem to be 1-1-1.

In fact to me it seems quite well distributed (exception being Ethiopia perhaps).

Spoiler

(brightest yellow is 1, anything darker is higher, green being a lot higher, this shows base tax distribution)

Build manufactures everywhere and you will be swimming in money. I do mean everywhere.

Thats what i usually start doing before i get bored of games (like ~1700s) and start something new.

 

[taltamir]

If you take away non colonized provinces

that is quite a lot to take away considering most of the world is colonized provinces.
Also, even if you ignore that, then you still get a lot of dev 4-6 dev provinces, 2-1-2 is not much better

 

[DanubianCossak]

that is quite a lot to take away considering most of the world is colonized provinces.
Also, even if you ignore that, then you still get a lot of dev 4-6 dev provinces, 2-1-2 is not much better

It seems to me like now youre just nit picking.

What exactly is the point youre trying to make?

That not every part of the world has equal return on investment for buildings? Because thats perfectly fine with me. Thats what makes playing Indian or Steppe countries different to European ones.

Although personally i wouldnt mind if some buildings had flat bonuses (instead of modifiers) like +1 tax_income or whatever. Thats fine too. And it might give ROTW a better building cost.

 

[taltamir]

It seems to me like now youre just nit picking.

What exactly is the point youre trying to make?

Not at all, my point as I explicitly stated it

I agree with your entire post except this line.
The buildings are only more powerful in a highly developed province, but if you don't develop (because its a total worthless waste of mana) then the buildings are massive hugely ridiculously weaker than before. because flat bonuses were replaced with % bonuses that scale based on development. and a newly colonized 1-1-1 province is simply too pathetic to be worth building anything other than a manufactory in unless you develop it first

For large parts if not most of the world, most buildings are actually a lot worse than before. only getting better in highly developed provinces. There are exceptions like the manufactory which is excellent no matter how well developed your province is, since it provides a flat bonus

 

[Frederick_Will]

This is simply not true.
In the old system you could build every single building in every single province (well within some parameters).
In the new system without CS you cant do it. With CS you can THEORETICALLY do it, but not in practical sense.

Yes, with CS you can develop provinces, but no, you will not be able to develop many provinces to the level where you can build all buildings in each one. It simply costs too much, and if you go for it, you will fail.

Also lets not forget that now there are fewer but more powerful buildings in game. The fact that you cant build each one of them doesnt mean that the new system doesnt work, it just means that you need to change your strategy/the way you play the game. If you have fewer construction slots, use them more intelligently. Its not like the game is unplayable if youre unable to develop each province you own 45 times.

In the old system for 50 gold and 10 mp i could add +1 tax in any province that i wanted(not counting modifiers) Same goes for manpower, or trade power. The old system gave you a flat guarantee bonus no matter the territory.(again before modifiers)

in the new system, the buildings only are worth it in higher developed provinces imo. 40% tax increase from a temple is very different comparing a 2 dev tax base compared to 10. As they only add a % of what you already have. They do not add a flat #. in the lower ones, you are limited to one maybe 2 buildings slots, with not a lot choices because the dev is too low. The only way to make the buildings more worth while, on top of adding more options both in the building that is worth it or in the # of buildings that can be made is by changing development. In many ways people with poorer provinces were nerfed, just due to their land.(the terrain modifier has issues as well, but I wont get into that. )

I don't mind some parts of the world being more difficult, but this new system really punishes a lot of people. especially in the new world. I should also mention the costs of buildings has gone up, making them not only more difficult to make in mass unless you are swimming in cash, but it will take a long time for them to pay off. Again, even more so in some parts of the world, making them not very viable if at all. in the end, there are some areas where it is just not worth building at all, or you are so limited, you are left without a choice. That doesn't sound like something I would like in a strategy game. Sure, there may be some strategies to get around that, but again, you are now more or less forced into those. (by reading your post, i would believe you want some good/intelligent options as to what you can do. the system currently feels like it restricts it in a lot of areas. especially without the dlc)

I should point out i never really expected every building to be able to built in a province with this current patch.(though the best provinces in the world should be able to imo. just due to being so "big") but i expected my options to be good. and currently, in a lot of areas, there are not. especially without the dev system.

So no, I do not agree with buildings being better overall. In poorer provinces, you are limited to very few options, that wont be as good. Which in turn limits your options even more. I should also point out that there are a fair number of provinces within 3 development of being able to get another building slot. While it may be more towards an exception rather than the rule, that is still a lot of provinces.

I should also point out while the game is still playable, it just feels like you are playing a very sub optimal part of the game without the dev system. It is not so much that the system doesn't work as you are talking about, but more here is part of the system that by it self feels incomplete replacing one that worked, and here is the other half to the new system to make it full(requiring a dlc). Especially as i pointed out, the older system use to do the same things that the new one does.(but without a dlc) You can see my other post for that.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I should also point out while the game is still playable, it just feels like you are playing a very sub optimal part of the game without the dev system. It is not so much that the system doesn't work as you are talking about, but more here is part of the system that by it self feels incomplete replacing one that worked, and here is the other half to the new system to make it full(requiring a dlc). Especially as i pointed out, the older system use to do the same things that the new one does.(but without a dlc) You can see my other post for that.

The individual buildings are generally stronger than before. A 40% tax increase from a temple on a 10 development province is +4, on a 3 development province (the minimum AFAIK), it's slightly over +1 tax increase...

One of the problems with the old system was that a dirt poor desert could apparently support every single building in the game until you hit the "one specialist" limit, and so could the biggest, thriving metropolis in the heart of Europe, sat at the hub of multiple trade routes. Does that make sense?

 

[Beagá]

Temple is awesome. Personally I think the game should be renamed to Indemnities Universalis, because sometimes I do wars just to squeeze the monies from other people to build them ASAP. Your wallet or your life

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

I see a lot of people arguing that the development and building system punishes the rest of the world relative to Europe and I just have to ask, well... shouldn't it? New World starts especially are not made to be easy in any way, and they really shouldn't be. The fact is, colonies in the New World did not reach anything close to European development, or even Indian, Muslim, or East Asian development, before the end of the game's time period. Why should they have high development provinces where buildings are worth it? Why should a random province in the steppes of Asia be a great place to slap down a temple? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, the ROTW are going to have a tougher time finding good places to plant buildings, but if you think about it... that's how it should be.

 

[Garak]

1. just because a boycott doesn't last forever doesn't mean it isn't a boycott
2. that decision will depend on how they respond to this current issue, hence the whole good will and trust thing.
3. when there are literal months between each release, they have no way of telling the difference between someone who is boycotting them and someone who is merely not buying this one product. Because not buying that one product is effectively boycotting them. this is just the nature of the gaming industry, where it differs from things like a grocery store where there is a clear difference between the two.


Sure it is, you are boycotting them because you believe they consistently are an inferior place to buy stuff as you explicitly said, and are willing to remove the boycott if they improve it. Just because the boycott is not forever doesn't mean it isn't a boycott.
And again, they have no way to tell the difference

You really, honestly do not understand what a boycott is. Please, just stop.

 

[Ixtli613]

You really, honestly do not understand what a boycott is. Please, just stop.

Shhh Garak, give TheChronoMaster's brain a rest before dragging this up again. Poor guy was bashing his head on the wall for quite a while, you know.

 

[Frederick_Will]

The individual buildings are generally stronger than before. A 40% tax increase from a temple on a 10 development province is +4, on a 3 development province (the minimum AFAIK), it's slightly over +1 tax increase...

One of the problems with the old system was that a dirt poor desert could apparently support every single building in the game until you hit the "one specialist" limit, and so could the biggest, thriving metropolis in the heart of Europe, sat at the hub of multiple trade routes. Does that make sense?

+4 on a 10 base tax province. Not 10 development overall. Unless you start with tax that high or near it, you will have to upgrade you province a fair amount of times to get that high(and lets not forget the new cap on dev increases. that is the one where 1 cant be higher than the other 2 combined. well +1 more than the combined.) and on how many provinces in the world is there 10 base tax, or near it?

and you cant just take 1 building, get a value and base it off that. Due to the new system, you have to take into account what else you can not make due to the slot being taken up.
Even if you were to get a fair amount of tax increase, is it enough to outweigh the other buildings that you could of made? how many provinces do you think you would be putting a temple in that are 3 tax development and not something else? because the slots are so limited, i would rather put something else there, rather than spend 100 ducats to get a little over 1 ducat.(that is 100 years roughly to break even, and that is without modifiers.) and idk how that random event works, but there is one where it seems to take 1 tax away from a smaller province, and move it to your capital. meaning that a temple there is vulnerable to being useless.(sure the capital will better, but still doesnt mean the building the smaller province had is as useful, and possibly, a money sink.) development would make these buildings more useful, as you would be getting a higher amount of return due to the flat increase. (i should point out the older building system gave both flat increases before modifiers and % increases. now we only get the latter, and the former is gained via dlc)

and with the new building system, it is a little difficult to just compare the same building between versions head to head. as for a little more cost(cash and lower MP), i could build a temple and a courthouse in the older version, giving some more benefits. (10% tax and -1 unrest i believe on top of the +1 tax. not to mention the bonuses for having lower unrest)

as for deserts having the same amount of building slots as other places, that sounds more like a separate issue. as you could of taken the older building system, and done a number of things.(this is with the new fort mechanics) 1 is a hard cap. you can only build say 2 buildings sets(as in all of the temple tree, production, manpower, trade, etc) in a province if its in "bad" terrain. tho this is arbitrary and prone to issues like the current system and development. You could increase the cost of making a building there by a certain %. meaning that you can build every building there, just at an increased cost.(more gold, and for the older system, maybe an extra MP or 2) This sounds more reasonable, and should you feel like it, you can do it. it is not very restricting, and still gives you choices. it may not be the most efficient but it works. the mega cities like London or Paris will still be on better terrain, allowing them to grow. but that still allows the "poorer" parts of the world a chance to grow, without being screwed over. This latter part could of been done without a building overhaul, and wouldn't require something that was in the base game put in a dlc.

 

[Garak]

Shhh Garak, give TheChronoMaster's brain a rest before dragging this up again. Poor guy was bashing his head on the wall for quite a while, you know.

Sorry, was reading through the thread and responded without realizing how many pages were left to go.

 

[Swami]

Ukraine: minimum allowed monthly salary currently is around 150 USD. Most students and pensioners get around 100-120 USD/month. I remember that were tough times when I had to pay for my eduction in university, pay for a room and spend some money on girlfriend while having monthly income around 300 USD. Sorry, but I had no option but to use "pirated" or freeware software back then. Hopefully those times are long time gone for me, but for lots of people in my country it's a harsh reality.

I shouldn't spend the money on your girlfriend, women wanted te emancipate and do the same jobs as men and earn their own money, be independent and all that, so I allow them to do that and pay for themself, just as I would let a guy pay his own bills. They then feel equal and will appreciate it

Also I know I can't say it. But if poor people use pirated versions I wouldn't mind as a company honestly, because you aren't losing money with it if they can't pay it XD

 

[hypaspist]

those who dont like eu4 are just bored. i am off to play a mp with 14 people and enjoy eu4 tonight, you keep spaming the forums with Kalucinations

 

[Homusubi]

I don't want development. There, said it. I'm with the "too many monarch point sinks" people on this one, and want freedom to play without it. Thanks Paradox for making it optional.

 

[BFTeixeira]

The individual buildings are generally stronger than before. A 40% tax increase from a temple on a 10 development province is +4, on a 3 development province (the minimum AFAIK), it's slightly over +1 tax increase...

One of the problems with the old system was that a dirt poor desert could apparently support every single building in the game until you hit the "one specialist" limit, and so could the biggest, thriving metropolis in the heart of Europe, sat at the hub of multiple trade routes. Does that make sense?

Yes.

 

[BFTeixeira]

I see a lot of people arguing that the development and building system punishes the rest of the world relative to Europe and I just have to ask, well... shouldn't it? New World starts especially are not made to be easy in any way, and they really shouldn't be. The fact is, colonies in the New World did not reach anything close to European development, or even Indian, Muslim, or East Asian development, before the end of the game's time period. Why should they have high development provinces where buildings are worth it? Why should a random province in the steppes of Asia be a great place to slap down a temple? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, the ROTW are going to have a tougher time finding good places to plant buildings, but if you think about it... that's how it should be.

Not, when the game, at least without CS, makes the difference stay the same throughout the campaign until 1821. That's completely ahistorical.