Where did all my moral authority go??

[CybrSlydr]

I am playing as the Danes (though I've created the Norwegian kingdom, own the southern part of England and other various places...) and have 4 of the 5 Germanic temples under my control. However, my moral authority (which used to be around 38) is down around 20 right now - wtf happened??? I've raided churches and the like over in Ireland, but that actually LOWERED my moral authority.

I'm trying to reform the Norse faith, but everything I do apparently lowers my Moral Authority - how can I raise it?

 

[guinea prince]

I can imagine one of two scenarios: either some of the boosts from past actions have expired, or the actions of your coreligionists have brought shame to you all: lost defensive holy wars, holy warred someone and lost, etc.

Other People are one of the big pressures that can force you to take action to unify the faith. You really cannot trust other people.

 

[Chlodio]

Somewhat related, does anyone else think the default morality at 25% is too low? I recall it used to be 50%, what 25% means that every game there will be an epidemic of Catholic heresies, Catholicism itself becoming a minority in 150 years from the start. I modified this back to 50%, which resulted in a more historical outcome where one or two heresies pop up once a while, but are generally eaten alive.

 

[Vortex_13]

I would guess that other Germanic pagans are declaring Holy Wars and losing. The AI is pretty dumb when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

[Karlington]

I am playing as the Danes (though I've created the Norwegian kingdom, own the southern part of England and other various places...) and have 4 of the 5 Germanic temples under my control. However, my moral authority (which used to be around 38) is down around 20 right now - wtf happened??? I've raided churches and the like over in Ireland, but that actually LOWERED my moral authority.

I'm trying to reform the Norse faith, but everything I do apparently lowers my Moral Authority - how can I raise it?

Hover over the Moral Authority and every single modifier will be listed.

Raiding a temple/church holding of your own religion will reduce Moral Authority, doing it to one of another religion will raise Moral Authority.

 

[CybrSlydr]

Well, solved the issue by holding all 5 temples. First time I've ever managed to reform.

My problem now is my vassal limit being smaller than the number of vassals I've accumulated. I've created Kingdoms of Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Going for Scandinavian Empire now. Hard when I'm out of Subjugation CBs.

 

[yezhanquan]

Somewhat related, does anyone else think the default morality at 25% is too low? I recall it used to be 50%, what 25% means that every game there will be an epidemic of Catholic heresies, Catholicism itself becoming a minority in 150 years from the start. I modified this back to 50%, which resulted in a more historical outcome where one or two heresies pop up once a while, but are generally eaten alive.

Default authority for organized religions is 20%. Every holy site fully controlled by the faith is +10% for each site. The religious head controlling a holy site is +5%.

 

[mrinku]

Yeah. That's the same as ever. I'm not sure where @Chlodio is getting 25% from... Catholics would usually be on at least 35% unless they lose Rome, and more typically be 45% for holding Kent and Rome in any start date. Cologne is normally held, aside from maybe in early starts, so that's 55% right there. Santiago and Jerusalem are the ones normally out of their control.

Possibly he was adding the 20% base and the 5% for "religious head controls holy site" but forgetting to add the 10% for the holy site?

 

[Chlodio]

Yeah. That's the same as ever. I'm not sure where @Chlodio is getting 25% from... Catholics would usually be on at least 35% unless they lose Rome, and more typically be 45% for holding Kent and Rome in any start date. Cologne is normally held, aside from maybe in early starts, so that's 55% right there. Santiago and Jerusalem are the ones normally out of their control.

Possibly he was adding the 20% base and the 5% for "religious head controls holy site" but forgetting to add the 10% for the holy site?

I misremembered 20% as 25%. But the point I was making was that things like losing holy wars and anti-kings will significantly lower it, and cause so many heresies that will never be beaten down. I also think that the basic moral authority should be 50%, even if none of the holy sites are held. That would mean there wouldn't be a need for the provincial "heretical stronghold"-modifier that makes converting certain provinces impossible for a set time, now if they would fairly high moral authority, to begin with, their conversion would already be difficult but not impossible in that time.

 

[mrinku]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and are free to mod your own game as you see fit, but I don't see any great issue with 20% as the base for an organized religion. One that ONLY has the 20% base has lost control of all holy sites and is clearly in trouble (and I'm specifically talking about AFTER all the time limited modifiers for conquest have died down. Judaism is a prime historical and in-game example). You're saying that they should be at base 50% under those circumstances? I disagree.

Under normal circumstances, organized religions get a lot of MA from pagan conversion. I know that you prefer things historical, so obviously there won't be any of that silly Pagan Reformation going on in your games, right?

 

[Chlodio]

How can you justify the epidemic of heresies and call it historical?

 

[mrinku]

How can you justify the epidemic of heresies and call it historical?

I don't. The game ceases to run on historical lines as soon as you start play and start altering history. Even without player action, people aren't going to die or be born on schedule, wars aren't going to be won or lost to plan and outside of a handful of scripted ones, events are not going to happen on time.

In my current game (circa 12th C), Western Europe is getting hammered from Muslim Spain from the west and the Byzantines to the east. Pagans all went nicely Catholic and I've not seen much in the way of serious heresy. Of course, I'm playing a Merchant Republic that consists of the three north sea island groups and don't have too much to do with al that. A couple of crusades were won a while back, but the Pope's having trouble getting enough troops to tackle the Muslim blob that holds most of France as well as Spain.

I DO take your point regarding heresy. But it has less to do with MA itself than the threshold at which heresy crops up - THAT is historically out of whack and would be where I'd personally mod it. But, as noted above, Catholicism should usually be at around of 55% unless they lose Kent and Cologne to infidels, or have been badly defeated in religious wars. If they hold Santiago, they're on a comfortable base 65%.

 

[Karlington]

That would mean there wouldn't be a need for the provincial "heretical stronghold"-modifier that makes converting certain provinces impossible for a set time, now if they would fairly high moral authority, to begin with, their conversion would already be difficult but not impossible in that time.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood how province conversion works. The Moral Authority of the religion of the province does not make any difference. It's the Moral Authority of your own religion, the one you are converting to, that matters.

Further, the Heretic Stronghold modifier does not make conversion impossible, though it triples MTTH so it greatly slows conversion down.

 

[Yxklyx]

I'm afraid you have misunderstood how province conversion works. The Moral Authority of the religion of the province does not make any difference. It's the Moral Authority of your own religion, the one you are converting to, that matters.

Further, the Heretic Stronghold modifier does not make conversion impossible, though it triples MTTH so it greatly slows conversion down.

I seem to recall in earlier versions of the game that the MA of the religion being converted from was also taken into account. That was changed a couple of years ago. One reason MA might be lower than before is because of Nomads. The AI doesn't seem to be coded to understand how powerful nomadic armies are so they declare holy wars and county conquests over and over and over again losing them all tanking MA for their religion in the process. I'm seeing this a lot playing as Emperor of Russia with neighboring nomads and my vassals are doing this over and over again.

 

[DB42]

Well, solved the issue by holding all 5 temples. First time I've ever managed to reform.

My problem now is my vassal limit being smaller than the number of vassals I've accumulated. I've created Kingdoms of Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Going for Scandinavian Empire now. Hard when I'm out of Subjugation CBs.

Mass declare Conquest CBs. Quickest way to mop up a ton of independent tribals.