When will Western Europe Get some love?

[A_Dane]

What's wrong with current West European sprites? I think those look quite nice.

And let's not forget that mechanics of the game are modeled after Western Europe. Muslim and Byzantine DLCs enhanced areas which didn't fit to that model. I think that most fitting Western Europe expansions would deal with merchant republics and Catholic Church, because feudal monarchies are already well covered. In my opinion Eastern Europe needs more attention than the Western Europe, because feudal mechanics don't really portray that well the internal struggles of Slavic ruling dynasties and their inheritance system and then there's plenty of Pagans who could have some attention.

Well, I'd think there's plenty of things, that could be done for the celtic world as well And truth be told, Spain could use some love as well, bit onesided as it is.

But that being said I'd still like for more love to eastern europe. I never play over there since it just dosn't feel right..

 

[IDtenT]

They just need to stop treating empires like a higher tier kingdom; even if it only means negative modifiers are doubled for each crown authority level.

 

[Avernite]

The basic problem is that blobs are still too blobbish. In my last game I had a very good example: at some point the HRE left an independence league to go away. 2 years later all the claims had been pressed... the League just disbanded, rather than sticking around to help eachother 'just in case'.

And, of course, the AI kingdoms never offer to help any rebels, while I as player often do.

 

[N Katsyev]

Yeah blobbing is way too much. I have an entirely irrational hatred of the HRE now simply because I've seen it just steamroll its way around Europe too many times. I take this weird sadistic pleasure in destroying its armies... It's not healthy what the HRE has done to me.

 

[Lord Sloth]

Id pay 5$you to get the HRE weaker, and papal elections.

 

[Comradebot]

Yeah blobbing is way too much. I have an entirely irrational hatred of the HRE now simply because I've seen it just steamroll its way around Europe too many times. I take this weird sadistic pleasure in destroying its armies... It's not healthy what the HRE has done to me.

Wish I was around my CKII playin' computer, but in my game as Nubia its now 1380, and the HRE is almost gone. Last I checked, they can only call up 20k guys (having, just a few decades ago, had an army of over 150k at their disposal). A series of crap rulers has lead to waves of mass exodus from the HRE, creating a swath of independent counts and dukes (and a couple kingdoms) in Germany, Italy, and North Africa.

 

[brxbrx]

That's the beauty of the HRE, it's so big, that reforming it if it's destroyed is next to impossible. But sadly, it rarely loses power, and instead of fragmenting and festering like in history it just grows stronger, and more solid.
The devs should see to making it more like the HRE in EUIII. Yes, CKII is not EUIII, and the games have different scopes in different areas, but the HRE as it is is too strong, in both structure and military might.

 

[A_Dane]

The basic problem is that blobs are still too blobbish. In my last game I had a very good example: at some point the HRE left an independence league to go away. 2 years later all the claims had been pressed... the League just disbanded, rather than sticking around to help eachother 'just in case'.

And, of course, the AI kingdoms never offer to help any rebels, while I as player often do.

My main issue with this, is that you're handed free claims when someone succesfully break free.

I can see the argument, when it's a kingdom, duchy, county/whatever which leaves, that is de jure part of the empire. But in those situations, you got de jure empire conquests if i remember correctly. I can not see the sense in giving claims to titles which go independent, that are not de jure part of your land. You lost the war after all, it was never de jure yours in the first place, and you just recognized their independence..
It wouldn't be as much of a problem, if the game mechanics worked a bit different, but they don't: The HRE for example, will always be able to field an insane amount of troops compared to their opponents.

 

[Ruwaard]

I think most of the improvement suggestions here could be included in patches rather than DLC, personally I think that DLC should be reserved for whole new game mechanics rather than to just some flavour events, improvements in history files etc.



I think that other Catholic empires should face same issues as the HRE. For example lords of Empire of Francia would be as willing to become more independent if the emperor is weak, just like lords of France did when Capet dynasty was weak. But also HRE should have option to centralize it's power, because in the alternative history emperor might have won the investiture controversy and instead of losing the imperial power he could have increased it by defeating the pope and installing a loyal popes of his own.

I totally agree. I'm against nerfing for the sake of nerfing, but certain issues could be more fleshed out. I like plausibility, but (IMHO!) some here would prefer determinism with respect to the HRE. Sure I'll admit to like playing in the HRE, but (IMHO!)some would want to change the much praised 'sandbox'-element of CK2 for the HRE.
Besides raising Crown Authority basically is too easy for every realm. Another element like size too would be better as a more general rule and not title specific.

 

[A_Dane]

I totally agree. I'm against nerfing for the sake of nerfing, but certain issues could be more fleshed out. I like plausibility, but (IMHO!) some here would prefer determinism with respect to the HRE. Sure I'll admit to like playing in the HRE, but (IMHO!)some would want to change the much praised 'sandbox'-element of CK2 for the HRE.
Besides raising Crown Authority basically is too easy for every realm. Another element like size too would be better as a more general rule and not title specific.

problem isn't that the HRE shouldn't be able to centralize..

The problem is that the HRE can/will conqueror Lithaunia by 1130 (I've seen them do it much earlier though, and it happens in 80 % of my games, only time they don't is when Poland/Denmark manage to cut them off), which would have been completely and utterly impossible in real life. I don't get why people had a beef with the Aztec DLC, but have no beef with this..

 

[Me_]

problem isn't that the HRE shouldn't be able to centralize..

The problem is that the HRE can/will conqueror Lithaunia by 1130 (I've seen them do it much earlier though, and it happens in 80 % of my games, only time they don't is when Poland/Denmark manage to cut them off), which would have been completely and utterly impossible in real life. I don't get why people had a beef with the Aztec DLC, but have no beef with this..

I've yet to see Lithuania being conquered by HRE. It's always Denmark, Sweden, Norway or Poland in my games.

 

[A_Dane]

I've yet to see Lithuania being conquered by HRE. It's always Denmark, Sweden, Norway or Poland in my games.

Seriously? In the 20 % of games where it dosn't get taken over by the HRE, it's as you describe. But in those games the HRE usually goes conqueroring somewhere else (Italy, France, Northern Africa etc.)

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Seriously? In the 20 % of games where it dosn't get taken over by the HRE, it's as you describe. But in those games the HRE usually goes conqueroring somewhere else (Italy, France, Northern Africa etc.)

In my most recent games Galich and Polotsk have usually divided Lithuania. At the same time HRE has had huge troubles because of civil wars and excommunications and many dukes in Italy and Burgundy have left the realm. Naturally they have reconquered some of them, but other big realms like England and France have blobbed more than HRE which has collapsed frequently.

 

[nestorius]

I would say Empires in general need a little bit more love. At present they are too much like Kingdoms they should be a little bit more complicated affairs.

 

[name_here]

Funny, usually I see the HRE locked in a massive civil war for a decade every generation or so. In my Roman Empire game it's sort of shifting eastward into France, losing ground to the AI factions north of Greece as well as my massive push into Italy. Mending the Great Schism gave them the Holy War CB on Catholic France, which is why they're able to push hard in that direction.

They also usually get pushed out of Kingdom of Sicily by the Fatimids.

 

[Nuril]

In my game it's sort of shifting eastward into France,

Spain is the Emperor! We HRE now!

:ninja:

 

[Ruwaard]

problem isn't that the HRE shouldn't be able to centralize..

The problem is that the HRE can/will conqueror Lithaunia by 1130 (I've seen them do it much earlier though, and it happens in 80 % of my games, only time they don't is when Poland/Denmark manage to cut them off), which would have been completely and utterly impossible in real life. I don't get why people had a beef with the Aztec DLC, but have no beef with this..

Really Lithuania versus Aztecs? I'd say that's apples and oranges. Sure it might happen too often, then again in CK1 the HRE imploded too often, but that is still much more plausible than the optional 'fun' (for some) dlc.

Like I wrote earlier, maybe every realm should get a decrease in Crown Authority if a new dynasty ascends to the throne.

More empire specific, this is much more a general blobbing issue; IMHO if the HRE would get special rules, then it should also apply to the other 'added' empires once they reach a certain size. Yes, the HRE and the Papacy did have a special relationship, which had its advantages and disadvantages; firstly this also ought to make the HRE title more prestigious than any of the other alternate (later added) imperial titles (if used by a Catholic ruler), but secondly those other empires would eventually face similar pressures too. The Pope might have had plenty issues with the HRE, but at the same time having an emperor of Francia, Hispania or Britannia taking over the role of the HRE as the dominant worldly power trying to control the Papacy, isn't appealing for any Pope either. In fact if any other Western Catholic king would have wanted one of those alternate imperial crowns, it would have required quite some concessions to the Papacy with at minimum Papal investiture (maybe afterwards one could start to change this back).

 

[name_here]

They went the long way.

 

[A_Dane]

Really Lithuania versus Aztecs? I'd say that's apples and oranges. Sure it might happen too often, then again in CK1 the HRE imploded too often, but that is still much more plausible than the optional 'fun' (for some) dlc.

Like I wrote earlier, maybe every realm should get a decrease in Crown Authority if a new dynasty ascends to the throne. More empire specific, this is much more a general blobbing issue; IMHO if the HRE would get special rules, then it should also apply to the other 'added' empires once they reach a certain size. Yes, the HRE and the Papacy did have a special relationship, which had its advantages and disadvantages; firstly this also ought to make the HRE title more prestigious than any of the other alternate (later added) imperial titles (if used by a Catholic ruler), but secondly those other empires would eventually face similar pressures too. The Pope might have had plenty issues with the HRE, but at the same time having an emperor of Francia, Hispania or Britannia taking over the role of the HRE as the dominant worldly power trying to control the Papacy, isn't appealing for any Pope either. In fact if any other Western Catholic king would have wanted one of those alternate imperial crowns, it would have required quite some concessions to the Papacy with at minimum Papal investiture (maybe afterwards one could start to change this back).

I don't think the rules should apply specifically to the HRE, I consider empires way too stable in the sense of how well they hold together. Not just the HRE, they're just the only ones who usually amounts to anything.

 

[Zmieczemiogniem]

Though Catholicism needs a DLC. Papal elections, proper investiture crises, coronation of HRE, relics and pilgrimage are all missing.

The examples for the Orthodox and Muslim counter-parts in terms of mechanics are already in as well. It just boils down to flavor for the most part, though I realize some mechanics may need to be written in.

A couple examples I could offer up.

- The Pilgrimage can be represented the exact same way a Hajj for Muslims is done in-game.

- One way Relics can be represented by traits (like Sayyid) that certain landed bishops would have, with movement of the relics possible. As well as Beautification and Sainting.

- Coronation can be either a decision or event chain that every newly ascended ruler would undergo. With things like Papal opinion and possible intrigue from opposing Kings.

- Papal election can take place with the addition of a Curia, Where you can send Cardinals by decision to Rome where they will be part of an expanded council that the Pope appoints. Working similar to how a ruler would pick his council.

- Cardinals can either be created by going to the diplomacy screen of the Pope (analogous to how 'transfer vassalage' works) and selecting a high level prince-bishop which the Pope would in turn send a reply about, or by event chain like mentioned before.