When will there be an update for the Scandinavian nations?

[Jiben]

The North Sea Empire was still quite a bit Norse at the time of it's fall, 1024, and Danish Catholic Church started to lose popularity in the early 1520's (about the period where I imagine the mission of inviting the remaining Norse to the place would I take place, but could be earlier or after), and the Lutherans started to become the favored religion after the reign of Frederik I of Denmark (his heir was Lutheran and converted a lot of Catholic churches to Lutheran ones and was continued after his heir too, making it a dominant religion in Denmark to this day). I was thinking during this period of the church losing power, it might be logical for the king to seek alternatives, one of which could be returning to the Norse roots. Kinda like when Vladimir I, of the Kievan Rus, called emissaries from the largest religions to explain what the religions were about, and picked which religion he would convert to that way. Maybe the mission could do the same thing, or it could be a random event that happens like the Hussite one...

Not to mention, the banner of the North Sea Empire is commonly depicted with the raven of Odin on it, which would kinda feel odd with a Catholic nation being it if you ask me. Maybe it shouldn't be religion locked, but instead could be formed as any Scandi-nation, even if they are Catholic, or it could be something like the KoG where it is just a rename with added bonuses, but I feel like it would be less unique that way, and I feel like if it was its own formable, it would add more flavor to the region.

IDK it feels like you want to make it unique disregarding if it's historical or not.

I guess we allready have some borderline meme stuff in the game but asatro was really dead at gamestart.

 

[Battlex]

However, to add my thoughts, I do not like the idea of the two tags of Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Norway. I much rather see the North Sea Empire being a thing that can be formed like Germany or the HRE, where forming one will cancel out the other, and could be formed by any Scandi nation if they own all the needed provi and are of the Norse religion.

It could require the annexation of the isle of Great Britian, and the colonziation of Greenland, to make the historical peak of the North Sea Empire (well, besides Vinland, which would be around Newfoundland and Labador today,) but it could offer a nice competator to a buffed up Scandi (Scandi is probably the worst formable, so buffing it up, and adding the NSE to contest with it, would make the player need to make a desicion to form one of the two or stay the nation they started as). Due to the fact Scandi requires tech 20, the NSE could require tech 20 as well OR could require naval ideas finished to the max (due to the vikings basically being king of the seas, this would be logical for it to be done). I was also thinking that maybe the NSE could be a Norse only formable, that could be like the Hindustan to Scandinavia.

My plan on how Norse could be in 1444 without a custom nation is that Iceland could have a single Norse province, like with how the Hussites are in the Catholic Bohemia (although they have many in Bohemia), and that you can convert to Norse using the mission tree, and then start converting your lands back to Norse. Maybe there is a mission where the Norse followers are called upon by the king of whatever-Scandi-culture-nation-you-are-playing and could either be prosecuted (effectively converting the Icelandic province to Catholic) or could convince the king to become Norse as well. To help convert, like with the Hussites, there could be a mission to spawn a CoR, where it could be gathering Norse hofgothi or Norse-Wiccans (Wicca itself is the main religion of which witches follow, but there are many different types and different gods that are worshipped, like Norse Wiccans worshipping Norse gods,) and hiring them to travel the lands and convert people. This could end up with more nations converting to Norse, which might be weird, but, it is just as weird as Spain flipping Hussite due to the Hussite CoR.

But, that is just me spitballing ideas. But I really do agree that Scandi and the Baltic nations need to be improved.

North Sea empire is used as a term to describe Cnut the Great's empire, so don't agree with it being a norse only thing

 

[Reeeeeee]

North Sea empire is used as a term to describe Cnut the Great's empire, so don't agree with it being a norse only thing

That's true, but, Cnut and Sweyn, dispite both doing things to benefit the church, both rulers were not offically Christian, but Cnut became so around the end of his riegn, where he became basically the first offically Catholic king. Most of his territories were still a big chunk pagan, and it wouldn't be until 11th century where it is basically forced onto the public, with Ásatrú churches/temples being torn down and replaced with Catholic ones. However, I do see your point.
I realized if it is supposed to be a challenger to a buffed Scandi, it would probably have to be Catholic. Maybe there is an event that lets you keep Iceland as Norse or not, to strenghten the riegn in the island, but not to convert to it (unless you convert to it manually).

 

[Reeeeeee]

IDK it feels like you want to make it unique disregarding if it's historical or not.

I guess we allready have some borderline meme stuff in the game but asatro was really dead at gamestart.

Ásatrú wasn't dead at game start, and it has never been dead, as religions don't die, as there is always gonna be someone out there that follows it. 1.4%-ish of Iceland's population still worships the gods and part of the Ásatrú Fellowship today (and lets not forget the rest of the people around the world who are Ásatrú, like the Norse-Wiccans). Iceland was too far for the reign of Norway that it was basically its own thing just under the name Norway, and it was hard to enforce stuff in Iceland from Norway. The Ásatrú church was replaced with the Catholic church, yes, but many people didn't care. Kinda like when the Hussites were punished/silenced in Bohemia, it didn't stop them from worshipping, and the same happened in Iceland.

And this game is built off of ahistorical events. History is needed to ground it to the start dates, but other than that, basically nothing is consistent. The mission trees losely follow history, but then it makes its own twist. You could get a PU on France as England via wargoal from a mission, dispite that never happening. Ásatrú and stuff coming back could happen in the game, just like how the Hussites can come back in Bohemia despite that not being historical at all.

 

[Reeeeeee]

Also, Iceland was independent at the time Catholicism came to Norway was when Olaf I came to Iceland. The period is called the Old Commonwealth, as Iceland was a Commonwealth at that time, and only became part of Norway in the 13th century. Catholicism wasnt forced onto them until they became part of Norway.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Also, Iceland was independent at the time Catholicism came to Norway was when Olaf I came to Iceland. The period is called the Old Commonwealth, as Iceland was a Commonwealth at that time, and only became part of Norway in the 13th century. Catholicism wasnt forced onto them until they became part of Norway.

Read a book! I got it! But setting the religious thingy aside for a moment, what do you guys think about my Scandinavian proposal?

 

[Reeeeeee]

Read a book! I got it! But setting the religious thingy aside for a moment, what do you guys think about my Scandinavian proposal?

I do like some of the proposals, like more provi in Norway and Sweden.

I like the idea of there being HRE incidents involving Denmark and Sweden, as both of those nations were big threats to the HRE and the Danish were even barred from HRE affairs in the Treaty of Lübeck. This could be an event in the HRE that could block Denmark from joining in the League War, but probably will have to be after Denmark already tried to expand into the empire. There could be an option to let them do what they want that would improve relations with Denmark, but make you lose some imperial authority.

Scandi should 100% be buffed, probably the worst formable, which is saying something when Sokoto exist.

I feel like the Kalmar Monarchy is an interesting concept, as the Kalmar Union had a hereditary monarchy, but also kinda an elective kingship. I feel like it is hard to implement the actual government debacle that happened there. I do feel like you had a good idea, but, not as well.
Personally, I feel like the Rigsrådet would be an interesting thing to try to implement, and can be under the Kalmar Monarchy title. Basically, what the Rigsrådet was was a council of noblemen and councilors for the king that represented their respective kingdom (there was three of them [for the three nations], and they had like 35-40 people each), and together, they would help the king rule, but they will also make regional laws for their land as well.
I feel like with the Kalmar Monarchy, it would work with the king being the head, but then every few years, the junior partners get to choose a council (Riksråd) to send, kinda like a colonial government in game, but the king has less power. They will get random stats when the "election" comes up to kinda show the mix of talents (like you could get a 6/2/3 Riksråd), and they will take the job as the primary "ruler" of your nation. You are still locked behind the restrictions of being a junior partner, but, there could be somethings that change due to the Riksråd. Maybe Improve Relations has a buff, and you don't need to spend prestige on stuff, and no hit to trade power. That is something I came up with on a whim, and I am unlikely to improve on it. If you like it, feel free to expand and improve it if you do.

I do not agree on the Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Norway formables, as I am gonna be honest, it wouldn't change much imo. Maybe Greenland could be formable in the way that Iceland is (requiring you to only be two provinces and of the right culture), and maybe the North Sea Empire, like I was spitballing earlier in here. I do not see DN and SN being formables, as unlike the large PLC, it isn't that big of a territorial change and can be a common occurence in this game. I used to advocate for Lobardy in the game, but, it would basically just be Mantua being annexed by Milan and that would be the end of it.

If there were to be more Norse/Scandi/Nordic formables, I would say these are the most likely canididates: Greenland (in 1444 it was owned by Norway but EU4 didn't give it to them), Danelaw, Finland, Anglo-Scandinavian Empire, Gael-Gall, and Langbarðaland. Finland is already releasable, so it being formable isn't too complicated to understand. Gael-Gall is a mix of culutres of the Celtics of Ireland and Scotland and the Nords, but it could be the name of the region if they were united. Langbarðaland is basically Nordic Naples, it was a colony made by the Nords when they fought the Emirate of Sicily and won, and they took all of the territories it owned and kept it as their own.

Those are just my thoughts on what you proposed however, so take them with as much salt as you want.

 

[Reeeeeee]

I do think the Scandi region does need some more love, as it has been pretty bare bones imo.

 

[Reeeeeee]

I do think the Scandi region does need some more love, as it has been pretty bare bones imo.

 

[CoolSpin]

Just want to say
1) Cnut and Sweyn - just call them Knut and Svein... (this is really triggering me tho, haha)
2) I'd love to know some of your sources/references @Reeeeeee - somewhere online to get started from your standpoint.

Otherwise I'm just lurking this thread.

 

[fr-rein]

I honestly agree about updating Scandinavia a bit, it's a must.
Not sure I would agree with all those ideas though.

Ruthenia, declared independence in 1939, and only lasted a day. I know the Russians were called 'White Ruthenia' but it was only used until the late 1600's until its modern name was picked up, and they are not the Ruthenians we are talking about as the Rus/Ruthenia was also a name of the East Slavs.

This isn't correct. You confuse it with Carpatho-Ukraine (wrote about it in HOI4 too), state in Carpathian Ruthenia.

"Ruthenia" is a stand-in name for Ukraine essentially in EU4, which wasn't Ukraine yet (the major national events yet to come in 1444) but which already had a number of precursors which is generalized as Ruthenia. Which isn't just Kievan Rus - a mere decade before game start it was essentially the Slavic faction of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, lead by Svitrigaila in civil war against Sigismund, and earlier wars in GDL confirmed that divide.

Later, after historical Uprising of Khmelnytsky when the whole Ruthenia essentially was at war with Poland, there was even a formal deal (Hadiach Treaty) and state that was to be set up as the part of the Commonwealth. Although it did fail, it is also a major precedent and was the formal recognition of many efforts to create this state. EU4 overlooks Lithuanian vassals of XV century (Kyiv and others) which weren't integrated at all and the later historical Cossack Uprising, so it is easy to overlook this part of history, but it did happen and matter.

I am sorry for annoyingly correcting about it

 

[RichardOlcese]

I honestly agree about updating Scandinavia a bit, it's a must.
Not sure I would agree with all those ideas though.



This isn't correct. You confuse it with Carpatho-Ukraine (wrote about it in HOI4 too), state in Carpathian Ruthenia.

"Ruthenia" is a stand-in name for Ukraine essentially in EU4, which wasn't Ukraine yet (the major national events yet to come in 1444) but which already had a number of precursors which is generalized as Ruthenia. Which isn't just Kievan Rus - a mere decade before game start it was essentially the Slavic faction of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, lead by Svitrigaila in civil war against Sigismund, and earlier wars in GDL confirmed that divide.

Later, after historical Uprising of Khmelnytsky when the whole Ruthenia essentially was at war with Poland, there was even a formal deal (Hadiach Treaty) and state that was to be set up as the part of the Commonwealth. Although it did fail, it is also a major precedent and was the formal recognition of many efforts to create this state. EU4 overlooks Lithuanian vassals of XV century (Kyiv and others) which weren't integrated at all and the later historical Cossack Uprising, so it is easy to overlook this part of history, but it did happen and matter.

I am sorry for annoyingly correcting about it

Thank you for your support and for the info about Ruthenia! Slava Ykraïna! Xoxolandia ypaaaaaa!
A Ruthenian and a Ukranian are basically the same people?

 

[fr-rein]

A Ruthenian and a Ukranian are basically the same people?

Are people living in same place same as people 500-600 years ago? Can you apply nation retroactively at any point of time? That's about same question.

History happened and like Dutch became a separate entity from rest of Germans due to historical events, the same happened with Ruthenia.

EU4 features it by having regional cultural split to not delve too deep into politics if possible, although it doesn't feature any events about it.

In any case this is Scandinavian thread and reply about a point with formables from before, I replied mainly because it was uniquely mistaken about 1939. While some of examples aren't good, it has a point that not all new suggested formables in Scandinavia are that good...

 

[Rashie]

Whether there will be one or not, Sweden especially deserves a special peasant estate.

For various reasons the peasants were a real power factor in Swedish politics during this era, they had their own estate in the national diet unlike much of the rest of Europe, which also lead to situations where the king could ally with them to curtail the influence of the nobility at times.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Whether there will be one or not, Sweden especially deserves a special peasant estate.

For various reasons the peasants were a real power factor in Swedish politics during this era, they had their own estate in the national diet unlike much of the rest of Europe, which also lead to situations where the king could ally with them to curtail the influence of the nobility at times.

Great addition! I didn't know about that.

 

[RichardOlcese]

In view of the latest dev diary, what would be appropriate landmark buildings for Scandinavia? Kronborg castle? That wooden church in Norway? That bishop's castle in Copenhagen?

 

[Pterinochilus]

That wooden church in Norway?

Which one? At one time we had over 1000 stave churches in Norway, but today only 28 is left dating back to the medieval era. When it comes to monumental buildings in Norway the Nidaros cathedral (built above the grave of St. Olaf) in Trondheim have been the most important one.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Which one? At one time we had over 1000 stave churches in Norway, but today only 28 is left dating back to the medieval era. When it comes to monumental buildings in Norway the Nidaros cathedral (built above the grave of St. Olaf) in Trondheim have been the most important one.

Yeah, that one. The big one which was depicted in Age of Empires 2 I think.

 

[Pterinochilus]

Yeah, that one. The big one which was depicted in Age of Empires 2 I think.

I never played Age of Empires 2 so I don´t which one was depicted there. The Nidaros cathedral is a Gothic cathedral and not a wooden church though.

 

[RichardOlcese]

I never played Age of Empires 2 so I don´t which one was depicted there. The Nidaros cathedral is a Gothic cathedral and not a wooden church though.

I meant this one:

Borgund Stave Church - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

PS: Are you a dinosaur?