When will something be done about the ludicrous number of planes the AI deploys?

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Simon_9732495

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You example isn`t horrifically unrealistic, considering that the most important part of both tank and fighter is an engine. It wasn`t unusual to even use downgraded aircraft engine model in tanks. So, a tank factory already has ability to build engine, and MGs/Autocannons and radios, can handle all steel elements. Only aluminium or wood and various fly control instruments have to be added.

It`s wasteful, but it will take a year or more to gain efficiency, so not too terrible for wartime retooling, considering many plants were created from ground up in that amount of time.
I can agree on that.
My point was, though, that it is possible to change 150 MILs from one equipment to another in 1 hour. It's an example for a useful abstraction. Beeing too far out of the window is avoided by the efficiency loss.

The abstraction that number of planes in a zone is limited by airfields and range is another abstraction I can live it. I'm not convinced another limit like "max planes in airzone" would make the game better for me.
 
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Axe99

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I disagree with the general idea of decreasing fighter numbers, the axis built almost 100k fighters and the United Nations 160k, if you can't put those to fight then the fighter count at 1 point in time will be even higher then it is now.

But they could make the AI UK put at least 5 mils into medium tanks instead of fighters, it might make North Africa a challenge instead of the easy walk it is now.

Part of the issue, though, is that while those numbers sound ballpark correct, the actual numbers fielded at any one time were much less than the production numbers would makes us think they are. I'm no expert, but I suspect one key reason is accidents being higher IRL than in-game (but could well be wrong) - but it could also be that air combat losses were much higher historically as well (they could certainly be brutal in carrier battles).
 
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Harin

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Most of the time yes. At the extreme end, there isn't the airspace for large numbers of aircraft to operate, but that's not the main point.

My thinking was that the command points mechanism from Stellaris, could model pilot numbers & quality somewhat. Like, it is some number that takes into account population, education level, etc. of aircrew, to produce a number that represents how many aircraft can be operational simultaneously. Going over that number, means that the recruitment standards and/or training length is lowered, with some kind of penalty as a result.
Part of the issue, though, is that while those numbers sound ballpark correct, the actual numbers fielded at any one time were much less than the production numbers would makes us think they are. I'm no expert, but I suspect one key reason is accidents being higher IRL than in-game (but could well be wrong) - but it could also be that air combat losses were much higher historically as well (they could certainly be brutal in carrier battles).


I believe both of you are correct and on to something.

History records that there were many more planes built than the game allows. We also know from our general and collective knowledge of the war that not even the US was flying 5,000 or 10,000 planes in one air zone at a time. The US believed so strongly in air power that they made the deliberate gamble to limit their army to 91 divisions, so they could field all those planes. The B-29 program required almost 500,000 men, by itself. Even so, no where did the US keep 10,000 planes constantly in the air.

Where is the disconnect from the game and reality?

We know that the US lost as many or more planes to accidents as it did to combat. I suspect that was true with all the majors, or at the least, the accident rates were much higher than people realize. Remember, these pilots were NOT experts. They were kids right off the streets, under extreme pressure to learn flying fast. Tearing up equipment was the cost of that learning curve. When they got to their units they were still learning and continued to tear up equipment on the front line, until that learning curve flattened. These are not modern peacetime pilots who have time to learn safely.

Losses were higher than they are in the game. As, @Axe99 said, the carrier losses were much higher IRL, than in game. This higher loss rate, means the accident rate is even higher.

We also know that many many more planes, or their equivalents, were lost than pilots.

We also know that plane quality mattered. If you want to lose precious pilots, then put them in a bad plane. They will accomplish little and die fast. Many obsolete planes were scrapped, used for training, or just left to rust. They were built, but not all of them were shot down.

It seems that during the war there was a HUGE mass of aircraft behind the thinner line of deployed aircraft.

Below are some ideas to address the obvious, or items under represented in the game:

  1. Add pilots to put a realistic limit on planes in the air. The pilots were the actual constraints to planes in the air, not the number of aircraft produced.
  2. Pilots are not a function of education or manpower rules. Instead they come out of the common manpower pool, but are "made" into pilots through accidents in training. Those accidents make pilots expensive.
  3. Introduce plane losses that does not kill the pilot. Many planes came home crippled, or the pilot bailed out and was rescued. The pilot just gets a new plane out of inventory.
  4. Increase accidents. Training pilots should consume planes at an alarming rate. Even at the front, lower skilled pilots will have more accidents than the veteran pilots. Production, then becomes the determining factor behind how many pilots a nation can field. The result would most likely produce a more realistic number of pilots, in relation to nations, than a manpower rule.
  5. EDIT: This is already in the game so striking it out. Give obsolete aircraft a serious handicap. Putting a precious, and very expensive pilot (think how many accidents it took to field that pilot) into an obsolete aircraft that can be shot down quickly would make little sense. This would be realistic. Once an old fighter was replaced on the front, a nation tended to retire that plane into training squadrons, or scrape it all together.
  6. Create a training wing, or training pool, that aircraft can be assigned into. New pilots in training will consume those planes as they train for their first deployment to a front line air wing. Obviously, players and the AI would put their oldest planes here. If the training wing runs low on aircraft, then training slows down. If it runs out of aircraft, training stops.
  7. Once the new pilot gets to their front line air wings, they will consume the planes that air wing is equipped with. Their training continues until they finally reach veteran status.
Much of this would be behind the scenes. Pilots are made, much like tankers are made, through tearing stuff up in training. The exceptions would be 1) that pilots tear stuff up during their deployment training too, very realistic and missing from the game; 2) and that pilots tear up a lot more stuff than tankers while they train, again realistic.
 
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Secret Master

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Give obsolete aircraft a serious handicap. Putting a precious, and very expensive pilot (think how many accidents it took to field that pilot) into an obsolete aircraft that can be shot down quickly would make little sense. This would be realistic. Once an old fighter was replaced on the front, a nation tended to retire that plane into training squadrons, or scrape it all together.

This is already the case.

I can't emphasize enough how much of a difference there is between a 1936 and 1940 and 1944 fighter. It's so important to research those newer models sooner rather than later that in various versions of HOI4, we've had to restrict either certain kinds of ahead of time research and/or licensing to prevent the game from devolving into "Who can research the better fighter with a design company first?" in MP.

Let me give you an example:

Let's put 4000 1936 fighters against 4000 1940 fighters. We'll do Britain versus Germany over the English Channel. Britain will run 1936 fighters with the design company versus German 1940 fighters with the design company. Equal XP will be applied to each plane. No doctrines will be used to prevent doctrines from obscuring the value of the planes themselves.

All wings will be exercised to max possible XP. Both sides will have level 6 RADARs to increase detection.

The stats on the planes:

hoi4_248.png

hoi4_247.png


Let's run it for just one month.

Results:

hoi4_246.png


That's 1167 dead 1936 fighters traded for 399 dead 1940 fighters. That's a 2.92:1 loss ratio.

Note that we're just putting them against each other in ideal circumstances. Try this again in an air region where range matters. Then it goes even worse for the older planes, because their range is significantly worse.

It's the same way with things like strategic bombers. The difference in bombing potential (and ability to defend themselves from fighters) between the 1940 and 1944 strategic bombers is vast. And you really don't want to intercept B-29s with BF-109s. The BF-109s will get shredded.
 
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Harin

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This is already the case.

I can't emphasize enough how much of a difference there is between a 1936 and 1940 and 1944 fighter. It's so important to research those newer models sooner rather than later that in various versions of HOI4, we've had to restrict either certain kinds of ahead of time research and/or licensing to prevent the game from devolving into "Who can research the better fighter with a design company first?" in MP.

Let me give you an example:

Let's put 4000 1936 fighters against 4000 1940 fighters. We'll do Britain versus Germany over the English Channel. Britain will run 1936 fighters with the design company versus German 1940 fighters with the design company. Equal XP will be applied to each plane. No doctrines will be used to prevent doctrines from obscuring the value of the planes themselves.

All wings will be exercised to max possible XP. Both sides will have level 6 RADARs to increase detection.

The stats on the planes:

View attachment 607060
View attachment 607061

Let's run it for just one month.

Results:

View attachment 607062

That's 1167 dead 1936 fighters traded for 399 dead 1940 fighters. That's a 2.92:1 loss ratio.

Note that we're just putting them against each other in ideal circumstances. Try this again in an air region where range matters. Then it goes even worse for the older planes, because their range is significantly worse.

It's the same way with things like strategic bombers. The difference in bombing potential (and ability to defend themselves from fighters) between the 1940 and 1944 strategic bombers is vast. And you really don't want to intercept B-29s with BF-109s. The BF-109s will get shredded.

You are absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me. I rarely face that situation in the game and forgot.
 

Axe99

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Lots of great ideas there @Harin :) If you haven't already, I reckon that's well worth a new thread in the suggestions part of the forum :)
 

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Create a training wing, or training pool, that aircraft can be assigned into. New pilots in training will consume those planes as they train for their first deployment to a front line air wing. Obviously, players and the AI would put their oldest planes here. If the training wing runs low on aircraft, then training slows down. If it runs out of aircraft, training stops.

This has an advantage I hadn't considered when I first read it.

At the moment, I tend to create wings and train them for a bit before sending them to war. Air wings with terrible XP tend to fight poorly, so I almost never send wings into battle when they are freshly made. They always get bottom of the barrel planes, and usually, by the time they are exercised enough, they have received better planes from the stockpile.

But it's kind of micro-intensive, because I have to remember to stop training them and send them to fight as well as remember to form new wings and start training them. If I could just do it off map and automate the process, then I could just form wings and send them to fight within the limits of trained pilots. And I could also keep training new pilots as time goes on without having to think about it.
 
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This has an advantage I hadn't considered when I first read it.

At the moment, I tend to create wings and train them for a bit before sending them to war. Air wings with terrible XP tend to fight poorly, so I almost never send wings into battle when they are freshly made. They always get bottom of the barrel planes, and usually, by the time they are exercised enough, they have received better planes from the stockpile.

But it's kind of micro-intensive, because I have to remember to stop training them and send them to fight as well as remember to form new wings and start training them. If I could just do it off map and automate the process, then I could just form wings and send them to fight within the limits of trained pilots. And I could also keep training new pilots as time goes on without having to think about it.

Aye, this'd be a big plus :) I do the same, and it's a bit finickity having to swing back to the training airfields, check up on progress, deploy new wings and set to train, etc., You could even potentially still make it possible to create air wings with untrained pilots, but make the performance of untrained pilots even worse (so it'd be the kind of thing one would do if very desperate and with loads of planes and manpower). I'm thinking Japan late-war here....