When will Portugal get a much needed buff?

[Ryanneo]

Portugal was one of the most influential nations of the time frame and had huge impact on the far east and the americas. However Portugal as it is in the game never even comes close to it's historical zenith. If it doesn't manage to get eaten by Morocco (80% of games) then it just waste it's time and resources on colonizing wesetern africa and then losing wars to the countries there. While an outright buff to it's ideas and such may not be needed, but the AI just really needs to reorganize it's priortise.
The whole rebels going from ceuta to Portugal mainland needs to stop and Portugal has to refocus its colonization to important trade provinces and the Americas instead of colonizing and wasting all of its time and resources in western africa. Portugal just performs so horribly in pretty much all of the my games that it could really use a change

 

[Mr. G]

I think the problem is that the importance of a strong economy (not just money, but also manpower etc) is too small in this game, which I think will partly be fixed by the next DLC.

 

[Hastu Neon]

I agree.
It’s a pity seeing AI Portugal failing 90% of the time.
They engage in useless wars with Morocco for terrible provinces, got hammered by France when help England and generally overinvest in the Amazonas too early.

What they miss really is the Indian Ocean expansion in 1500-1550 and the flavour in Macao/Japan afterwards. The Goa event is simply not enough.

 

[DarkImpaler]

Portugal aside (but included in this), I think we also need some improvements in the whole colonialism area with more flavour, events and the like

 

[Foefaller]

I'm not sure if it's Portugal being weak so much as it is Morocco forming Andalusia in 50% of games without player intervention.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the Portuguese AI being tweaked to keep pushing east to China than just being content with bits of west Africa and maybe some colonies in South America.

Might also add some trigger effect to Historical Friends modifier so that, if there is ever the chance Portugal and Castille might fight each other, they do the best to avoid it. Maybe it's just me, but it always seems the trigger to Morocco crossing the Straits of Gibraltar is Iberia being divided thanks to some war between Castille('s ally) and England.

 

[Ryanneo]

Maybe they should just get rid of the English Alliance even though it is historical. There are countless alliances in the game that aren't simulated so they could probably just ake away this one

 

[Horn and Ivory]

For the record, Portugal did horribly lose wars in the Maghreb for basically worthless land and had to be bailed out by Spain, eventually leading to a huge decline and a 60 year PU under the Habsburgs. So Portugal losing wars against Morocco and in West Africa is historical and fine imho. A Spain that was more vicious and more concerned with keeping the Moors down might help.

I heartily agree with the need for more help in getting the AI to the spice islands, though, because the game really does suffer from never getting Chinaware or Spices into Europe in any meaningful quantities (until and unless the player gets over there) until vastly later than it became historically important.

I'm not sure if it's Portugal being weak so much as it is Morocco forming Andalusia in 50% of games without player intervention.

Most likley confirmation bias. I've never seen it ever.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Portugal was one of the most influential nations of the time frame and had huge impact on the far east and the americas. However Portugal as it is in the game never even comes close to it's historical zenith.

By itself, this fails to establish a need to buff any nation in the game. You could use an identical rationale to make a case to buff Morocco. Or Taungu. Or several dozen other nations ranging from England to Mughals to Kazan. To make a case that Portugal specifically needs a buff (rather than making a general AI improvement thread), you need to demonstrate why Portugal stands out.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't.

 

[Pile_O_Gunz]

It's just not an a.i friendly nation. The only initial expansion option is into a defensively positioned equal strength enemy on worthless, different culture, different religion land.

Portugal needs to play a long trade & colonial game, the a.i struggles to transport troops via ship never mind setup a decent trade network.

I hope it does get a buff but I can't see it being easy.

 

[seriousgigi]

the reason portugal gets eaten by morocco is op france. every time france rapes spain, portugal become alone and lose algarve (i guess) to moroccans.

also since the canaries belong to iberia region, spain can't be formed in some games because morocco conquer there

 

[petertju]

I agree.
It’s a pity seeing AI Portugal failing 90% of the time.
They engage in useless wars with Morocco for terrible provinces, got hammered by France when help England and generally overinvest in the Amazonas too early.

What they miss really is the Indian Ocean expansion in 1500-1550 and the flavour in Macao/Japan afterwards. The Goa event is simply not enough.

I'm not sure of this, for this to be possible a big part of the trade system would have to be remade or the AI would have to learn to adapt the current system.

 

[Troopperi]

Maybe there should be some other way for Portugal and such to establish presence at South and East Asia. The AI takes ages to colonize a chain of provinces there, but if the AI were more efficient, it would just grab every square of colonizable land there is which isn't that fun either. Maybe if there was some system to establish trading posts and such on foreign provinces, but not controlling the whole province.

And as others have said, if Portugal and Castille manage to get separated, they get into problems. Sometimes Castille/Spain starts to eat Portugal too if the alliance breaks.

also since the canaries belong to iberia region, spain can't be formed in some games because morocco conquer there

A friend of mine took the islands as Morocco and it was hilarious to realize that it had prevented Castille from forming Spain.

 

[Gree]

Any nation that made its glory through its navy and trade is doomed to fail at the hands of the AI. The game can only simulate the power of armies and the wealth from conquering provinces well, and thus the entire gameplay is focused around blobbing.

No matter how they buff portugal, it's always going to be a pushover. Not only the AI is simply clueless on how to use its navy, but the entire naval game is severely underpowered. Paradox knows this and does nothing, because their engine simply can't handle it.

And no, the trade system is not close to representing accurately how commerce was handled back then.

Actually, there are so many wrong things in EU4 that you can't hope to fix any of them by buffing or nerfing nations anymore. The devs should just release vicky 3 and work on EU5 already.

 

[Ryanneo]

Any nation that made its glory through its navy and trade is doomed to fail at the hands of the AI. The game can only simulate the power of armies and the wealth from conquering provinces well, and thus the entire gameplay is focused around blobbing.

No matter how they buff portugal, it's always going to be a pushover. Not only the AI is simply clueless on how to use its navy, but the entire naval game is severely underpowered. Paradox knows this and does nothing, because their engine simply can't handle it.

And no, the trade system is not close to representing accurately how commerce was handled back then.

Actually, there are so many wrong things in EU4 that you can't hope to fix any of them by buffing or nerfing nations anymore. The devs should just release vicky 3 and work on EU5 already.

I know that the game is limited in this sense but if i remember correctly a few patches ago Portugal would at least do relatively well for most games. They never become a dominant power in the trade of Indian and what not but they would at least become a decent power. I would just want it to return to that state or somewhere close which obviously was possible since it was like that in the past. I suppose the consistent fleshing out and buffing of the ROTW was too much for a unchanged Portugal to handle

 

[Canute VII]

Maybe there should be some other way for Portugal and such to establish presence at South and East Asia. The AI takes ages to colonize a chain of provinces there, but if the AI were more efficient, it would just grab every square of colonizable land there is which isn't that fun either. Maybe if there was some system to establish trading posts and such on foreign provinces, but not controlling the whole province.

And as others have said, if Portugal and Castille manage to get separated, they get into problems. Sometimes Castille/Spain starts to eat Portugal too if the alliance breaks.



A friend of mine took the islands as Morocco and it was hilarious to realize that it had prevented Castille from forming Spain.

Did you call?
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/trade-posts-in-foreign-countries.1050489/

 

[Mark68]

I know that I have been dealing with a great number of problems while trying to get The Navigator achievement as Portugal (yes, I know it's supposed to be hard...just not impossible). I know that if I'm allied to either Castille or England, I'm going to have to fight the Big Blue Blob at some point. Sometimes, Aragon AND the Blob (when allied to Castille, especially), and this throws my timing off (because I'm taking loans/paying for armies/recruiting mercs instead of hiring advisors). This also means that much of the time, I'm losing my explorer, whether I have him leading a fleet to battle or not.

Portugal has a pathetic economy and army to start the game, and to get the quickest colonies possible for the achievement, one has to adopt a Native Repression policy. This means that a Portuguese player has to ship some portion of his army (and keep it a somewhat decent level of maintenance) to deter native uprisings, which then leaves them vulnerable to Moroccans, Tlemcenis (if Morocco allows them to continue existing), and Tunisians (not to mention the aforementioned French & Aragonese).

In other words, I think either the Portuguese economy needs a buff, or army, fleet, and/or colonial maintenance needs to be reduced for Portugal to have a chance (surely, we human players can manage better than the historical de Avis dynasty, right?).

I seem to only be able to get as far as the Cape or Inhambane by 1500, while completely neglecting Brazil and the rest of the New World.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's always amusing to see multiple disagrees but no ability to answer for what I posted . There SHOULD, in principle, be a coherent rationale for POR to get buffs specifically over alternative nations. In principle, that rationale should hold up under logical scrutiny and follow the same causal model the game uses for its rules globally.

But when it comes time to build that coherent position to support such things, the coherency seems particularly elusive for some reason. I wonder why that is...

I seem to only be able to get as far as the Cape or Inhambane by 1500, while completely neglecting Brazil and the rest of the New World.

You can get the navigator achievement while simultaneously conquering Morocco and, once you fill more exploration ideas, still hit up Mexico early in the game. The AI can't, but you can. Whether you will is another matter, but failure to do so is not grounds for buffing Portugal.

And that's without using otherwise-suboptimal shortcuts like moving your capital out into Africa to allow coring provinces on the horn of Africa after marching through Mamluks, which would get the achievement faster but cost ADM points and lock you out of trade companies in Africa. No, you can simply use missions + navigator and complete the process by simply going around.

 

[Foefaller]

Most likley confirmation bias. I've never seen it ever.

Well, maybe not in fact, but it seems like most of my games where I start outside of Europe Morocco or another Berber state end up making serious gains into Iberia. The one game where they actually formed Andalusia their dominance of Portugal and Castille delayed the founding of Colonialism by almost 30 years. In another, Portugal & Castile's capital ended up getting forced to the New World because they lost all of their European holdings (save Portugal still had the Azores) and Leon was there. That's when I found out Leon (along with all the other formable states in Iberia, sans Andalusia) actually have their own unique NIs.

 

[artemis667]

It's not really about buffs, it's that the feitoria system was the way that Portugal had so much financial power in Africa and Asia, and it's just not represented well at all. They didn't have to fight land wars to conquer cities in Benin, Zanzibar, India, or the Spice Islands, instead they were establishing forts and controlling trade.

The trade companies are a gesture toward that, but they don't go far enough - even with the buffs and effects, they are still too close to other provinces.

Feitorias and colonised/ruled provinces should be completely distinct with different mechanics relating to them. And control of feitorias would be dependent on naval/diplomatic/economic factors only. If the mechanic was done correctly, Portugal would truly be the economic force through it's exploration, and you would also have the means for the Dutch and English, in particular, to compete - and potentially any other naval power, should they choose.

It wouldn't rule you out of traditional conquests, it would just be the default way you would expect to get the trade wealth to Europe.

 

[Foefaller]

By itself, this fails to establish a need to buff any nation in the game. You could use an identical rationale to make a case to buff Morocco. Or Taungu. Or several dozen other nations ranging from England to Mughals to Kazan. To make a case that Portugal specifically needs a buff (rather than making a general AI improvement thread), you need to demonstrate why Portugal stands out.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't.

PDX seems to disagree, seeing as they are on the short list of nations that receive the special "Luck" bonus when they are AI controlled, at least until 1700.

Question is, should they get a buff on top of Luck? Should the bonuses of being a Lucky Nation become stronger, or should Portugal have specific AI to nudge them harder to making their way to Asia and not get bogged down in fruitless attempts in invading Morocco?