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Arrnea

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I realise that some bugs are very difficult to fix, but there's plenty of bugs that would either be easy to fix, or have already had their fixes posted in their reporting threads that have been sitting around for months (or years) that should be fixed.

So the question is - when, if ever, will these bugs be getting attention?
 

majdavlk

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If they are old enough it becomes a feature ;)
 

Silversweeeper

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The reason for any one bug not being fixed likely depends on the bug, but some possible reasons:

- There is no bug report. If the devs don't know that something is broken, they don't know that it needs to be fixed.

- The bug is reported in the wrong place; you've probably seen people post bugs in dev diary threads or stickied patch note threads (which tend to have "NOT for bug reports" or something similar in the title). The devs monitoring such a thread likely aren't going to reply to a bug report in the thread with anything other than "Please post this in the bug forum", if they reply at all.

- The bug report is incomprehensible or doesn't contain enough information. For example, a report simply saying "The wrong person inherited under Elective!" is unlikely to result in a fix, as chances are nobody on the dev team will sit down and go over several thousand lines of script to find a possible bug.

- The bug can't be reproduced. If it works on the devs' computers but not on your computer, then they have to assume that there isn't a bug or (if something is reported as a bug by enough people that you can't dismiss it as a false report) they need to devote more time to trying to reproduce the issue (and/or bug hunting in other ways; maybe someone sits down and goes over the relevant script if this happens, which could take time and isn't guaranteed to result in the issue being identified).

- The bug isn't a bug. Something might seem like a bug but still work as intended, whether because the bug reporter didn't understand how something was supposed to work or because there was an issue with a tooltip or something (in which case the fix should be to the tooltip, not the thing the tooltip refers to).

- Something is an issue, but the devs disagree with how big an issue it is or what the fix should be. This probably is more common with balance issues (something works poorly) than with proper bugs (something doesn't work), but it might still be relevant.

- The bug is low priority compared to another bug. For example, a typo in the Immortality event chain would be less important than one in the Feast event chain, as the latter is seen by more people, and both would be considerably less important than a CTD or something that rendered a save unplayable (e.g. a completely blank event you can't close).

- It is unclear how to fix the bug. Sometimes, it simply isn't easy to determine the reason for the problem or what can be done to fix it, or a fix might break something else (or might have side-effects that need to be examined in detail).

- There is no time to properly implement or test a fix. Even if the bug report contains a proposed fix, someone needs to verify that it would be a good fix (as blindly copy-pasting a solution is dangerous even if we assume that the person suggesting the fix isn't intentionally malicious, as the fix could create new issues or could be incorrect since the person suggesting the fix could make a mistake as easily as the person that caused the bug), and someone needs to test that the fix solved the problem and that it didn't create new problems.

- Something other than bugs have priority. For example, polishing a shiny new feature that you expect a lot of people to play with just after release might be more important than fixing some old bug that's not particularly troublesome.

- Something went wrong with the fix. Maybe it was fixed internally but someone accidentally included the wrong file in the patch (we've had at least one instance of a bugfix being reverted in the next patch). Maybe something else broke and resulted in a similar bug. Maybe QA tested the wrong version and reported that the bugfix didn't work, causing it to be scrapped. Maybe the issue was more complicated than it appeared, causing only part of it to be fixed.

- There is no patch scheduled for release, so the fix can't be released yet. You don't want to release too frequent patches unless it is necessary (e.g. because something critical broke and you need to hotfix it), as that creates more work for QA, makes bug reports messier (and possibly harder to verify, as you don't necessarily know if a save that got started three hotfixes back is broken or if the game is broken), makes the life of modders more difficult (as they'll need to check if they need to make a compatibility update every time you update something if they've messed with any vanilla files), and creates the unreasonable expectation that a simple bug will be fixed extremely quickly (which isn't necessarily going to be the case, as it is likely to impair productivity if the devs need to drop whatever they're doing to do a "two minute fix" as soon as a bug is added to the bug database).


Regardless of the reason for the delay, I'd personally consider creating a new bug thread (or several, but lumping things together might be a good idea) for anything reported before 3.2-ish (definitely for anything before 3.0) that I could verify (as things sometimes get fixed despite not showing up in the patch notes) as still being broken, with a "I've reported this before, but the issue persists and I've not heard back/heard back but nothing happened" disclaimer and as much information as possible about what the issue is (and, if possible, what you think the fix is), as I would assume that that's permissible despite thread bumping being frowned upon (at least, nobody has complained when I've done it...).
 

Lewa263

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Right now, I've seen no evidence that anybody is still working on CK2. The devs left "for summer vacation" and haven't returned. I think it's up to modders to fix bugs now.
 

DPS

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It's extremely unlikely that ALL the bugs will ever be fixe; heck, I doubt that's happened for any game, ever.

What I'd like to see is more feedback in the bug report forum. Back in the EUIII days, Andrew T almost always at least acknowledged the report. Plus there was a log of known bugs; that would be helpful, too.
 

jfb8300

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Never. The bug forum is rarely read or acknowledged, even when the game is in active developement. And there is zero evidence anyone at all is working on it now. If or when new DLC arrives, it will introduce dozens of new bugs. Some of which may get fixed, the vast majority, however, will join the hundreds of existing bugs that have no intention of ever getting fixed. This vicious cycle is why CK2 is the last Paradox game I'll ever spent time or money on.
 

Urloc the Great

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I realise that some bugs are very difficult to fix, but there's plenty of bugs that would either be easy to fix, or have already had their fixes posted in their reporting threads that have been sitting around for months (or years) that should be fixed.

So the question is - when, if ever, will these bugs be getting attention?

Would be nice if you were a little more specific.

I once had something that looked like an inheritence bug, but I have not been able to reproduce it. Other than that I have not yet encountered any bugs.
 

Arrnea

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Would be nice if you were a little more specific.

Literal tens of pages of bug reports in the bug reports forum going without even dev/staff response, including all of the ones linked in my signature (that I have reported personally), some of which I have identified the fix for - still no response, months and months later.

This is why I don't play CK2 or Stellaris anymore, despite having sunk lots of money and time into them.
 

Cardolam

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Never. The bug forum is rarely read or acknowledged, even when the game is in active developement. And there is zero evidence anyone at all is working on it now. If or when new DLC arrives, it will introduce dozens of new bugs. Some of which may get fixed, the vast majority, however, will join the hundreds of existing bugs that have no intention of ever getting fixed. This vicious cycle is why CK2 is the last Paradox game I'll ever spent time or money on.

In my admittedly anecdotal circumstance I was contacted by a dev the day after I reported a bug in the bug forum. So, no, it is not as you say.
In regards to many, many bugs though, the HIP - Historical Immersion Project mod fixes them in spades, which means if someone wants to play a much less buggy game, he/she should try the mod.
 

Crimson Grog

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Personally, the main bugs I care about are the ones related to pagan reformation doctrines as well as merchant republics. These are both major DLC features and as such I feel like they should be higher priority. I especially want the doctrines to be fixed (such as Agnatic Clans, Enatic Clans, and Animism) since these are very interesting and provide a lot of potential gameplay and/or roleplay choices, if only they worked properly.
 

Silversweeeper

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Literal tens of pages of bug reports in the bug reports forum going without even dev/staff response, including all of the ones linked in my signature (that I have reported personally), some of which I have identified the fix for - still no response, months and months later.

This is why I don't play CK2 or Stellaris anymore, despite having sunk lots of money and time into them.

Now that I've taken a look at your bugs, I'm starting to wonder if you're even arguing in good faith, since most of your issues were reported quite close to the patches we've gotten since the report (and it is very unreasonable to expect the devs to always take the time to release bugfix patch N+1 just because bugfix patch N didn't fix all issues (and even more so during/just after the summer)).

The "critical" bugs:

- The Lodge mission issue is certainly annoying, but critical is overselling it. Also, there was less than two months between when you posted the report and when the most recent patch was released, so it is far from certain that there would have been time to fix and test it, particularly with IC testing going on.

- The religious control mandate bug is probably worse than the first one, but chances was it was too late to include a fix in both 3.1.1 and 3.2.0 when you reported it, and there also wan't a whole lot of time between the report and 3.2.1.

- The sympathy bug seems even worse. Again, not a whole lot of time to fix it in any of the patches we've gotten.

- I'm not sure the MR coronation envy is a bug, as you could be envious of something even if you're not eligible for it (that might even be why you are envious), though I've not checked if the localization would be odd in such a case. Also, there would not have been a lot of time to fix this, either, and it certainly isn't a critical issue.

- Getting more money stolen than you have isn't necessarily a bug, considering many events can put you in the red. Also, the bug certainly isn't critical, and there wouldn't have been a lot of time to fix it.

- The incompetent ruler modifier doesn't seem critical, and there again wasn't a lot of time to fix it.

- The chest pain issue sounds like it is more severe than some others. Still, not a lot of time to fix it in one of the patches we've gotten, and it probably isn't critical.

- The inability to declare war on your nomadic liege is rather severe, and might actually qualify as critical. However, seeing as you reported it less than a week before 3.2 the only patch it realistically could have been fixed in would be 3.2.1, and there could be a plethora of reasons for not fixing it there (e.g. the bug might not have been possible to reproduce, it might only happen in very rare cases (lowering the priority), or the solution wasn't identified in time).

The minor bugs:

- The China interface bug is actually something you reported with reasonable time for them to fix. However, it isn't going to crop up very frequently, so fixing it is likely very low priority.

- The letter event gender was also reported early enough that it possibly could have been fixed. However, a localization issue is generally not high priority.

- The warrior lodge gender issue was reported fairly late. Again, localization issues are rather low priority, and female leaders of warrior lodges will normally be rare, so this bug shouldn't show up extremely frequently.

- The tooltip age issue has no impact on gameplay. I agree that it should be fixed, but it sounds like a fairly low priority thing if it only affects dead characters, and it was also reported fairly late.

- No reformed pagan religion has a tribal pillar, so that probably isn't a bug and ignoring the bug report seems very sensible in that case (though I'll agree that a "This is WAD" reply would be nice), and changing things to have reformed pillars might not make sense as a reformation might be weird enough that it wouldn't make sense to transfer a pillar. Also, there wouldn't have been a lot of time to fix it.

- The owner issue clearly is a bug, but unless it renders you ineligible to use the book it doesn't seem like it impacts gameplay. Also, there wouldn't have been a ton of time to fix it.

- The apostate burning going to the ruler instead of the regent might be something to look at, but there are various events that skip regents (or that bypass council voting for things, for that matter), so it isn't necessarily a bug (or the bug is widespread enough that it should be fixed across the board). I'll give you credit for pointing out what the solution would be, though, even if there wouldn't have been a lot of time to fix it.

- TRIGGER_CLAN_TITLE is a localization issue, which probably would be low priority. Also, it was reported very close to 3.2's release, so it would have been unreasonable for there to have been a fix there, and it might not have been important enough to have been included in 3.2.1.

- The self-congratulatory bug is a bit weird, but it probably isn't particularly common, so fixing it would likely have been low priority. There also wasn't a lot of time for it.

- The Hindu MO tooltip bug is clearly a bug. The localization issue is likely low priority, while the minus sign is a bit more severe, though still not something that will affect a lot of people. Also, considering you reported the issue on the same day as 3.2 was released, there's really not been a lot of time for the devs to patch it.

As a general theme, you've also not really provided solutions as much as you've identified problems; I'll grant that some of the fixes would be rather obvious (e.g. if the MR coronation thing is a bug, you should put "NOT = { government = merchant_republic_government }" or "is_feudal = yes" in the trigger), but there's still a difference between "This is wrong" and "This is wrong, and this is how you fix it".


As for the lack of responses, I agree that that isn't ideal, but a lack of a response doesn't necessarily mean that something won't be fixed, nor does a response guarantee a fix will happen, and there might be good reasons not to respond to bug reports (e.g. you don't want to create the expectation that there will be a response as that might cause even more outrage when there isn't one).
 

Arrnea

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- No reformed pagan religion has a tribal pillar, so that probably isn't a bug and ignoring the bug report seems very sensible in that case (though I'll agree that a "This is WAD" reply would be nice),

If a staff member had replied "this is WAD", then yes, that would have been nice and that would have been the end of that bug report, no questions asked.

- The chest pain issue sounds like it is more severe than some others. Still, not a lot of time to fix it in one of the patches we've gotten, and it probably isn't critical.

Considering that the chest pain symptom is a great way to get your ruler killed, it's more critical than you're making it out to be here.

Also, for some clarification - you might be misunderstanding what I mean by "critical".
The test for me is "does this affect the mechanical gameplay of the game?". If it does, that's a critical bug. If it doesn't (eg. localisation issues or whatever), then it's not critical.

As a general theme, you've also not really provided solutions as much as you've identified problems; I'll grant that some of the fixes would be rather obvious (e.g. if the MR coronation thing is a bug, you should put "NOT = { government = merchant_republic_government }" or "is_feudal = yes" in the trigger), but there's still a difference between "This is wrong" and "This is wrong, and this is how you fix it".

I said I've provided solutions for SOME of them. Like this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ter-event-refers-to-incorrect-gender.1146844/

To some extent this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...n-pagan-lodge-leader-promotion-event.1167434/

and also this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ting-apostate-found-event-as-a-child.1175023/

and even these ones haven't even been responded to.
My point wasn't that most of my bug reports have solutions provided in them, but that providing solutions in the bug reports doesn't seem to increase the chances of them getting responded to.
 
Last edited:

Silversweeeper

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Considering that the chest pain symptom is a great way to get your ruler killed, it's more critical than you're making it out to be here.

Also, for some clarification - you might be misunderstanding what I mean by "critical".
The test for me is "does this affect the mechanical gameplay of the game?". If it does, that's a critical bug. If it doesn't (eg. localisation issues or whatever), then it's not critical.

That's not remotely close to how the devs divide bugs, at least not last we heard how they work (see this; DON'T necro that thread!).

Unless the devs have changed their system, there are two parts to the system: Priority and Severity. Priority is how important something is to fix, while Severity is how broken something is. Looking at the chest pain example, it certainly isn't as high priority as a crash (1 - Must Fix) or higher (0 - Must Fix Immediately), and it may or may not reach the step just below (2; I'd presume this is "High") depending on various factors (e.g. how frequently the issue is expected to be during a normal game). As for Severity, assuming all (or at leat most) other symptoms let you seek treatment, that might also be middling. Both of these ratings also assume that the bug can be reproduced, as it otherwise would be flagged as not being a bug and thus wouldn't be fixed.

Also, from the same bug dev diary, we know that fixing a bug might be delayed to the next sprint (the period in which a set of tasks should be completed; CK2 uses four week sprints) unless the bug is very important or related to a new feature. This isn't a new feature that's broken, and the importance might not be terribly high, so it could easily have ended up being delayed to the next sprint (or even later, depending on how the Priority and Severity compares to other bugs (and also depending on any further tiebreakers; to some extent, I'd expect "first in, first out" to be applied as a tiebreaker to anything that isn't related to a new feature)) or later, and there wasn't even time for a full-sized four week sprint between when you posted the issue and when 3.2.1 was released, so it not being fixed in that patch (or 3.2, for that matter) is to be expected.

This does not mean that you should start labelling your bug reports as "High Priority, Major Severity" or something like that, as it isn't up to you to tell the devs how important something is to fix. However, it certainly makes your division overly simplistic, as not all bugs that affect gameplay are equally important to fix or equally bad.

I said I've provided solutions for SOME of them. Like this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ter-event-refers-to-incorrect-gender.1146844/

To some extent this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...n-pagan-lodge-leader-promotion-event.1167434/

and also this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ting-apostate-found-event-as-a-child.1175023/

and even these ones haven't even been responded to.
My point wasn't that most of my bug reports have solutions provided in them, but that providing solutions in the bug reports doesn't seem to increase the chances of them getting responded to.

I'll concede that the childhood letter event had a suggested fix, and I already granted you the apostate one (though, as mentioned, that's not necessarily a bug as there are various other events that bypass regents), but for the third one you've not provided anything other than the obvious part of the solution ("Fix what is broken"). Also, if your point was that proposed fixes didn't increase the likelihood of a fix, your sample size is far too small to be able to conclude that.
 

mrinku

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As an aside... I'm not totally convinced that the Chest Pain symptom thing is a mistake. It certainly doesn't break immersion for me for a character to have untreatable symptoms that eventually kill them... and in this case if i's meant to be a flag for internal organ issues like heart or lung failure, sure.
 

DPS

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As for the lack of responses, I agree that that isn't ideal, but a lack of a response doesn't necessarily mean that something won't be fixed, nor does a response guarantee a fix will happen, and there might be good reasons not to respond to bug reports (e.g. you don't want to create the expectation that there will be a response as that might cause even more outrage when there isn't one).

Maybe there are reasons that bug reports don't get responses anymore, but as I said, they did at least get acknowledged as being received.
 

Arrnea

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As an aside... I'm not totally convinced that the Chest Pain symptom thing is a mistake. It certainly doesn't break immersion for me for a character to have untreatable symptoms that eventually kill them... and in this case if i's meant to be a flag for internal organ issues like heart or lung failure, sure.

Even if is WAD that some symptoms should be untreatable (which I don't buy), there is still a bug because the game says that the character has been recently treated when they haven't - blocking any attempt to use the Court Physician to Seek Treatment in the first place.
 

Arrnea

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Maybe there are reasons that bug reports don't get responses anymore, but as I said, they did at least get acknowledged as being received.

Probably because they hardly ever read the Bug Reports forum anymore. With development on the game seemingly in a "wind-down" phase, that is not so surprising.
 

Silversweeeper

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Maybe there are reasons that bug reports don't get responses anymore, but as I said, they did at least get acknowledged as being received.

There are quite a few dev replies in the bug forum from late May/early June (the ones I checked were essentially "Thanks; this is now tracked internally!" replies, though there could well be some "Not a bug" or "Please elaborate" replies too), which is somewhat recent and (as not all bugs from that time have been fixed) would seem to imply that CK2's support probably was expected to continue for a while at that time (and, so far, we've not been told that support has come to an end/will come to an end soon). Not everything from that time got a response (I don't know why; perhaps the bugs were already known, or were deemed WAD, or were impossible to reproduce, or the dev doing the logging wasn't in the mood to reply/didn't have time to reply on a certain day), but that doesn't seem to ever have been the case for CK2 (the ratio of bug threads with dev replies to bug threads without dev replies is about 1:7.5).

Replies stop early June; it is unclear why, but one possible explanation for most of that period is that people went on vacation (it was summer, after all) and that necroing a bunch of bug report threads just for a "Thanks; we're tracking this now!" after getting back to work wasn't a good idea. Whether they'll start up again isn't really something anyone outside PDS can say until it happens (or until it becomes indisputable that CK2 isn't going to get future support; I think it is still premature to conclude that at this point). I suppose it would be possible to try to reach out to the devs to try to get an answer as to why, e.g. with a generic "I've noticed that the overall amount of dev responses in the bug forums differs quite a bit from one game to another. Is there a specific reason why?" question in the general questions thread or a PM/@ to someone on the CK2 team to ask specifically about CK2 (I'd personally not do this, since some individual team member might not know the answer or might not be at liberty to give the answer and bothering them unnecessarily is unlikely to be appreciated), though I'm personally not curious enough about it to bother.