When will France start with engineers and heavy tanks?

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MrNewVegas

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Your right and wrong, Germans employed tanks well, and Heinz Guderian certainly was ahead of his time for tank warfare, and yes blitzkrieg was a solid doctrine.
However Most German tanks at the outbreak of the war could do nothing vs the Char B it simply had too much armor for the early war Panzer 2 and 3's to match up against.
But the Char B could have been out maneuvered by a turtle it was very slow. France employed it well on the Maginot line but couldn't exactly deploy it well to cut off the advancing german army.

So German tanks were not invincible in fact tank vs tank Char B vs Pzr 2's and 3's went very badly for the germans. Its pretty much the reason the Pzr 3 were up gunned and the Pzr 4's were pushed out....
The B1 was an exceptionally well-armoured infantry tank, but the Germans did not believe in infantry tanks, as a rule, so it's less clear if this was a deficit in German tank designs. I do agree with you though, the Germans did not do well against the B1, although I don't think it was deployed on the Maginot, because the B1 is a breakthrough tank doctrinally, and would have no purpose on the Maginot.
 

jfoytek

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The B1 was an exceptionally well-armoured infantry tank, but the Germans did not believe in infantry tanks, as a rule, so it's less clear if this was a deficit in German tank designs. I do agree with you though, the Germans did not do well against the B1, although I don't think it was deployed on the Maginot, because the B1 is a breakthrough tank doctrinally, and would have no purpose on the Maginot.

They were most certainly there, and couldn't be rapidly redeployed to cut off the germans because of its terrible speed hence the S-35 seeing far more action, because it actually moved a little bit....

Because it was an infantry tank is exactly why it was there the B1 belonged to the infantry and the s-35 belonged to the cavalry... French doctrine was defense first and the B1 even though a break thru tank was only such if the infantry were moving with it. Thus they were often pill box that were hull down and fortified on the maginot line.
 
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bitmode

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There is no question France had been digging in and fighting trench warfare since 1914. My first question is, why does France (in the game) not have engineer companies in their templates, yet Germany does? It may seem like a small difference, but 10 xp is much more important now that 1 div training is gone, and it's absurd that your first 10 should be spent on something that you should already have.

But that's just the start of the historical imbalance.

The real issue is the disparity in tank research, production, and quality. There are so many issues with how anti-historical the differences between French and German tanks are in this game, it's difficult to find the right place to begin.

How about we start with the the sheer quantity and severity of debuffs suffered by the allies and the utter lack of any debuffs suffered by Germany. Both France and the UK start with a debuff to population with "victors of the great war" and "the war to end all wars" which the allies must commit and make an effort to removing, while Germany, who fought in the exact same war and LOST, enjoys the lack of any similar debuff. You wonder why people say Gemany is too non-historically powerful? That's because it is. In fact, Germany has the exact opposite of a debuff in the form of a buff - MEFO bills. So you're saying Hungary has to suffer the Treaty of Trianon, but Germany can completely ignore the Treaty of Versailles? Okay.

The Treaty of Versailles, historically, was incredibly crippling to Germany, strangled their economy, and forbade many things, including TANKS. German tank production was limited and done in secret. This is not represented in the game. In fact, Germany is rewarded with the exact opposite scenario. They begin the game with heavy tanks (while France does not) and they can receive a massive boost to their tank research and production as early as their second and third focus. France does not begin the game with heavy tank research, as they most certainly should, and they do not get a bonus to tank research until 6 focuses into the military tree (which is locked and you cannot start down this tree as your first or second focus and you must wait a long time, putting Germany even farther ahead in tanks).

This puts Germany far ahead of France, so far ahead it's just absurd and not historical. Germany becomes the tank superpower when historically and realistically, France had the most and the best tanks, superior to German tanks - France's problem was they were just not used effectively and not concentrated. There are so many better ways this can be represented, but to deny France their tanks is not appropriate. France even had a good number of medium tanks long before Germany ever did.

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The game devs seemed to want to make Germany not have to try to beat France and ensure that France always loses, that much is clear. A Germany player does not need to play better than the French player because the odds are already stacked in their favor. A German player will never have to worry about French tanks and is a decade ahead in technological development and production.

The very least the devs could do is allow France to begin the game with heavy tanks already researched. I really can't understand why Germany even has theirs unlocked when they only built 6 of them (technically medium anyway) and somehow they're supposed to be comparable to the Char B1... But German players can shoot for the mediums anyway as their second focus.

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So as if France didn't already have enough to overcome already, which is fine, they have to go up against Germany, who doesn't have to overcome ANYTHING. The Treaty of Versailles, which was the primary debuff to Germany historically and FORBADE tank production, can be happily ignored, but the game really needs something here to hurt German tank development to put things closer to a historical setting. My conclusion is that the devs really hate France and historical accuracy and prefer to buff Germany instead as much as possible while finding any way they can think of to hurt the allies even if it means non-historical disadvantages for the allies and non-historical advantages for Germany.

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I agree with everything you said except that the developers did this because they hate France. There is no point throwing accusations like this around when there can be many reasons.
What's Paradox supposed to do though? Have them stop Germany every time? War ends in 1940 every time (or even 1938)?
Some examples:
  • Have a starting date right after Dunkirk or the fall of Paris
  • Removable national spirits on France that affect combat performance for some time, e.g. reduced org
  • Add the option to handle the start of Fall Gelb with decisions similar to new SCW and depending on what Germany and France pick respectively decide the opening that way
  • More emphasis on areas early game where Germany really was stronger like doctrine or airforce
  • Reduce strategic speed of non-mobile divisions to force France to commit to a particular defensive plan
  • Represent strategic friction with Belgium
  • Reduce Netherlands and Belgium to historical strength, with and without DLCs
  • An event that debuffs France temporarily when Germany attacks
 

Hjalfnar

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Pretty much what we did in Ultra. France has a plethora of different tanks in production at the start (8), we will also add stockpiles of WW1 & pre-war tanks including the 2 superheavies the French Army actually had (yupp, look it up). Problem will of course be that most of these tanks have a bad reliability, are slow and the doctrine is, in all honesty, shit. I sunk 2-3 months of research into our tank trees mainly because of France, because their tank production was a gigantic, corrupt, politically infused mess straight outta hell. Think companies producing tanks just so the government could keep them from bankruptcy, but doing it extra slow so they could squeeze the max of money out of it.

DF3A6B93D537BD32F640FEA2B4064FD99BE33620
 

Delpheus

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Pretty much what we did in Ultra. France has a plethora of different tanks in production at the start (8), we will also add stockpiles of WW1 & pre-war tanks including the 2 superheavies the French Army actually had (yupp, look it up). Problem will of course be that most of these tanks have a bad reliability, are slow and the doctrine is, in all honesty, shit. I sunk 2-3 months of research into our tank trees mainly because of France, because their tank production was a gigantic, corrupt, politically infused mess straight outta hell. Think companies producing tanks just so the government could keep them from bankruptcy, but doing it extra slow so they could squeeze the max of money out of it.

DF3A6B93D537BD32F640FEA2B4064FD99BE33620

Is the mod called just "Ultra"?
I'm very happy to see that French tanks are in production at the start of the game as they should be.
 

sekelsenmat

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So I think the game "abstracting" these stats and making every class of tank the same for all nations is fine, it eliminates some of these arguments and I'm find with that (although I would prefer granularity and each nations tanks being closer to historical, but we won't see that.) .

I think they could very easily add granularity to tanks by simply giving unique designers for different countries, something like:

French Designer: + Armor - Speed
German Designer: +S/H Attack +Speed
Soviet Designer: -Cost +Armor
 

batata1

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People who complain ahistorical French equipment should promise to send their army into Belgium and leave the Ardennes undefended. And let their air-force be destroyed on the ground which isn't even technically possible in the game. The game is a game, not a historical reconstruction, and the devs have a difficult job modelling how poor French leadership meant a materially equal or even superior force, on the defence, completely capitulated in 6 weeks.
The devs also need to try to make the game challenging for the Allies, even though historically Germany got crushed despite calamitous leadership in both France and Russia. You're already seeing complaints that the greater historical accuracy added in patch 1.9 means Germany is too weak to compete
 
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TheKillingJoke

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People who complain ahistorical French equipment should promise to send their army into Belgium and leave the Ardennes undefended. And let their air-force be destroyed on the ground which isn't even technically possible in the game. The game is a game, not a historical reconstruction, and the devs have a difficult job modelling how poor French leadership meant a materially equal or even superior force, on the defence, completely capitulated in 6 weeks.
The devs also need to try to make the game challenging for the Allies, even though historically Germany got crushed despite calamitous leadership in both France and Russia. You're already seeing complaints that the greater historical accuracy added in patch 1.9 means Germany is too weak to compete

Honestly, and this is coming from a guy mostly disappointed in La Resistance, but just a few tweaks/changes could make the balance so much better and this game so much more fun.

But that was only me talking about the past sentence.
 

JonS

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... In fact, Germany has the exact opposite of a debuff in the form of a buff - MEFO bills. So you're saying Hungary has to suffer the Treaty of Trianon, but Germany can completely ignore the Treaty of Versailles? Okay.
ToV was all but defunct by 1936 - Germany started avoiding reparations payments as early as 1920(!), while Hitler started openly re-arming in 1935.

Nevertheless, there are some downsides to the German player because of the ToV. The various occupations (Rhineland, etc) may trigger an early war if the Allies choose to do so, while the Germans have to expend a National Focus on the Treaty with the Russians (which does, admittedly, have some rather nice bonusses). Even the MEFOs aren't a freebie - they cost an escalating amount of political power which then, obviously, can't be spent on anything else.
 

Hjalfnar

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Is the mod called just "Ultra"?
I'm very happy to see that French tanks are in production at the start of the game as they should be.
There are current two version, one for the old patch/DLC, and one called ULTRA test for the current beta patch/DLC. You will need all DLCs though as we rely on a lot of assets from those.

Ultra for 1.8x/MtG: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1516163124

Ultra Test for 1.91beta/La Résistance (this one includes the new tank tech trees): https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2003579394

BTW our lead dev Vorondil is French. ;)
 

Madzai

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True that French tanks had their flaws, but so did every other tank.
French tanks had the same issues as Russian ones. It's not about a tank (as Germans ones, f.e. had similar overall issues), it's how you use them. French tanks were badly integrated into army structure (same as Russian armored divisions had messed up structure overall). Basically, all early war tanks had issues one way or another, but it's all about how you use them. And i think it's impossible to emulate in HoI4 realities.
 

Delpheus

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French tanks had the same issues as Russian ones. It's not about a tank (as Germans ones, f.e. had similar overall issues), it's how you use them. French tanks were badly integrated into army structure (same as Russian armored divisions had messed up structure overall). Basically, all early war tanks had issues one way or another, but it's all about how you use them. And i think it's impossible to emulate in HoI4 realities.
I don't think it's impossible to emulate this because of the land doctrines. I think the game already correctly gives Germany the advantages it needs with the Blitzkrieg land doctrine. And there you have it. France does not get the same bonuses to tanks and in fact is so far behind in doctrine and will never be able to catch up to Germany. This is already represented.

But...why are the devs denying France the heavy tanks that it was producing since 1935? France was producing it's mediums too.
 

Madzai

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But...why are the devs denying France the heavy tanks that it was producing since 1935? France was producing it's mediums too.

IMO, the answer is right in your message - "advantages it needs with the Blitzkrieg land doctrine" won't be enough if France to have historical amount of heavy and medium tanks. Sure, they can plop a massive penalty to those, but i don't think players who play as France will be thrilled.
 

MrNewVegas

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They were most certainly there, and couldn't be rapidly redeployed to cut off the germans because of its terrible speed hence the S-35 seeing far more action, because it actually moved a little bit....

Because it was an infantry tank is exactly why it was there the B1 belonged to the infantry and the s-35 belonged to the cavalry... French doctrine was defense first and the B1 even though a break thru tank was only such if the infantry were moving with it. Thus they were often pill box that were hull down and fortified on the maginot line.
Do you have any evidence of the B1 being deployed in any quantities along the Maginot? Because it makes no sense to deploy an infantry tank along the Maginot when you aren't doing any attacks from the Maginot.
 

Delpheus

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IMO, the answer is right in your message - "advantages it needs with the Blitzkrieg land doctrine" won't be enough if France to have historical amount of heavy and medium tanks. Sure, they can plop a massive penalty to those, but i don't think players who play as France will be thrilled.

What do you mean France players will not be "thrilled" to receive heavy tanks they should have historically in 1935? Why would a France player be upset with getting an advantage they should historically have?
 

Hoi Neuling

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France have Tanks and will start with them. From what I have heard and read the enemy Armys use mot. / mech. Infantry and Tanks too as well as Support-Troops. I see that in the Spanish Civil war, where the USSR (Sowjets) have send a full tank Battalion to the Spanish Republic as assistance. As a Result I have to bring in the 3,7 cm Pak now for my Tropps and later for National Spain.

As a big Surprise the AI is producing Tanks, Support Equipment and all other things which it hasn´t up to 1.8.2. I´m testing the Patch 1.9.1-Beta. If the Bugs there are gone and we Betas don´t find anything new be surprissed when it´s get official. :D
 

Delpheus

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France have Tanks and will start with them. From what I have heard and read the enemy Armys use mot. / mech. Infantry and Tanks too as well as Support-Troops. I see that in the Spanish Civil war, where the USSR (Sowjets) have send a full tank Battalion to the Spanish Republic as assistance. As a Result I have to bring in the 3,7 cm Pak now for my Tropps and later for National Spain.

As a big Surprise the AI is producing Tanks, Support Equipment and all other things which it hasn´t up to 1.8.2. I´m testing the Patch 1.9.1-Beta. If the Bugs there are gone and we Betas don´t find anything new be surprissed when it´s get official. :D

I tested the beta patch. What do you mean the French will start with them? France does not have them when I play it.
 

Emren

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There is no question France had been digging in and fighting trench warfare since 1914. My first question is, why does France (in the game) not have engineer companies in their templates, yet Germany does? It may seem like a small difference, but 10 xp is much more important now that 1 div training is gone, and it's absurd that your first 10 should be spent on something that you should already have.

You may have a point about France lacking engineer support companies in their templates. But to cry for realism, only to also demonstrate that you've abused the 1-div training exploit seems disingenious and counterintuitive. Besides, you don't need to add the engineering companies until they're actually needed in battle, so in 1936, you have around 4 years before you need them - if we're talking about the historical game. You can spend some of that time building the necessary support equipment, which you are not prevented from building in 1936.
 

Leinad965

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Copy and Paste the France from Total War for a much more historical and still useless France, doesn't kill the balance.

PDX plz

No, please no! That mod is heavily event based. When someone should win, he gets lot of bonuses, when someone should lose, he gets lot of maluses. Thats not game, that is some event based historical document.