When will France start with engineers and heavy tanks?

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Delpheus

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There is no question France had been digging in and fighting trench warfare since 1914. My first question is, why does France (in the game) not have engineer companies in their templates, yet Germany does? It may seem like a small difference, but 10 xp is much more important now that 1 div training is gone, and it's absurd that your first 10 should be spent on something that you should already have.

But that's just the start of the historical imbalance.

The real issue is the disparity in tank research, production, and quality. There are so many issues with how anti-historical the differences between French and German tanks are in this game, it's difficult to find the right place to begin.

How about we start with the the sheer quantity and severity of debuffs suffered by the allies and the utter lack of any debuffs suffered by Germany. Both France and the UK start with a debuff to population with "victors of the great war" and "the war to end all wars" which the allies must commit and make an effort to removing, while Germany, who fought in the exact same war and LOST, enjoys the lack of any similar debuff. You wonder why people say Gemany is too non-historically powerful? That's because it is. In fact, Germany has the exact opposite of a debuff in the form of a buff - MEFO bills. So you're saying Hungary has to suffer the Treaty of Trianon, but Germany can completely ignore the Treaty of Versailles? Okay.

The Treaty of Versailles, historically, was incredibly crippling to Germany, strangled their economy, and forbade many things, including TANKS. German tank production was limited and done in secret. This is not represented in the game. In fact, Germany is rewarded with the exact opposite scenario. They begin the game with heavy tanks (while France does not) and they can receive a massive boost to their tank research and production as early as their second and third focus. France does not begin the game with heavy tank research, as they most certainly should, and they do not get a bonus to tank research until 6 focuses into the military tree (which is locked and you cannot start down this tree as your first or second focus and you must wait a long time, putting Germany even farther ahead in tanks).

This puts Germany far ahead of France, so far ahead it's just absurd and not historical. Germany becomes the tank superpower when historically and realistically, France had the most and the best tanks, superior to German tanks - France's problem was they were just not used effectively and not concentrated. There are so many better ways this can be represented, but to deny France their tanks is not appropriate. France even had a good number of medium tanks long before Germany ever did.

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The game devs seemed to want to make Germany not have to try to beat France and ensure that France always loses, that much is clear. A Germany player does not need to play better than the French player because the odds are already stacked in their favor. A German player will never have to worry about French tanks and is a decade ahead in technological development and production.

The very least the devs could do is allow France to begin the game with heavy tanks already researched. I really can't understand why Germany even has theirs unlocked when they only built 6 of them (technically medium anyway) and somehow they're supposed to be comparable to the Char B1... But German players can shoot for the mediums anyway as their second focus.

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So as if France didn't already have enough to overcome already, which is fine, they have to go up against Germany, who doesn't have to overcome ANYTHING. The Treaty of Versailles, which was the primary debuff to Germany historically and FORBADE tank production, can be happily ignored, but the game really needs something here to hurt German tank development to put things closer to a historical setting. My conclusion is that the devs really hate France and historical accuracy and prefer to buff Germany instead as much as possible while finding any way they can think of to hurt the allies even if it means non-historical disadvantages for the allies and non-historical advantages for Germany.

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Gyrvendal

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I agree with you that France could start with heavy tank researched and engineers in their templates. Would be historical and not change the balance much IMO.
Though I believe the concensus about french tanks pre-war is that although they had better armor and guns than German tanks, most of them were quite badly designed:
- Very slow engines and short autonomy
- One man turrets: 1 single man is supposed to command the tank, aim the main gun and load it at the same time. German turrets had space for 3 men, which made them much more efficient.

Some of the most recent models didn't have these flaws, but they were very few in number.
 

Delpheus

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I agree with you that France could start with heavy tank researched and engineers in their templates. Would be historical and not change the balance much IMO.
Though I believe the concensus about french tanks pre-war is that although they had better armor and guns than German tanks, most of them were quite badly designed:
- Very slow engines and short autonomy
- One man turrets: 1 single man is supposed to command the tank, aim the main gun and load it at the same time. German turrets had space for 3 men, which made them much more efficient.

Some of the most recent models didn't have these flaws, but they were very few in number.
True that French tanks had their flaws, but so did every other tank. Arguably, the French tanks did have better armor and firepower however. So I think the game "abstracting" these stats and making every class of tank the same for all nations is fine, it eliminates some of these arguments and I'm find with that (although I would prefer granularity and each nations tanks being closer to historical, but we won't see that.) As the game is currently designed, I think that it's only fair to allow France to start with heavy tank research, because it is indeed an indisputable historical fact the Char B1 was in production in 1935.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/france/char_B1_bis.php
This information is readily available to everyone online. I don't know how the devs missed it.
 
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Iskulya

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France starts with engineers. What are you talking about? It's like you haven't even played France. You keep making these claims that are just flat out wrong whether its claiming that they cant get rid of inefficient economy, and now that they don't start with engineers.

France didnt have engineers researched in 1.8 and before. They do in 1.9, it's just not automatically included in their infantry templates.
 

sonofliber

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France starts with engineers. What are you talking about? It's like you haven't even played France. You keep making these claims that are just flat out wrong whether its claiming that they cant get rid of inefficient economy, and now that they don't start with engineers.

France didnt have engineers researched in 1.8 and before. They do in 1.9, it's just not automatically included in their infantry templates.

Thats... thats literally what he is complaining about....
 

Kenttäharmaa

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The problem here is that engineers, like many other techs in the game, begin at 1936, which does not allow for the representation of earlier types of that tech. This is especially noticeable with the various specialised aircraft types, which most definitely did exist before 1936, but are omitted from the game.

I would have preferred an extensive tech tree akin to Darkest Hour, but they could at least have made a pre-1936 "tier 0" for every tech that existed 1.1.1936 IRL, without cluttering the UI too much.
 

Delpheus

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France starts with engineers. What are you talking about? It's like you haven't even played France. You keep making these claims that are just flat out wrong whether its claiming that they cant get rid of inefficient economy, and now that they don't start with engineers.

France didnt have engineers researched in 1.8 and before. They do in 1.9, it's just not automatically included in their infantry templates.

I play France almost exclusively, and they are my favorite WW2 nation. I know how they are portrayed in the game, in the past and currently. These claims are not baseless, as you say.

France does start with engineers researched. But they are not included in their templates. You need to grind a precious10 XP to get them in your templates. This would be fine if Germany had to do the same thing, but they do not. Germany starts with them in their templates.

You pointed out exactly what I was saying.

There is no question France had been digging in and fighting trench warfare since 1914. My first question is, why does France (in the game) not have engineer companies in their templates, yet Germany does? It may seem like a small difference, but 10 xp is much more important now that 1 div training is gone, and it's absurd that your first 10 should be spent on something that you should already have.
 

Delpheus

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The problem here is that engineers, like many other techs in the game, begin at 1936, which does not allow for the representation of earlier types of that tech. This is especially noticeable with the various specialised aircraft types, which most definitely did exist before 1936, but are omitted from the game.

I would have preferred an extensive tech tree akin to Darkest Hour, but they could at least have made a pre-1936 "tier 0" for every tech that existed 1.1.1936 IRL, without cluttering the UI too much.
This. I think the game needs more pre-1936 tech. We have the great war tanks.... and a few other things. But we need more things that we can use that are outdated to make things much more realistic and historically accurate.
 

Delpheus

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My biggest beef is that France has 3 tech slots while Italy has 4. Even Soviets start with just three. And Italy of all countries has 4!
I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees this as a problem. There are so many problems with France in just about every category and this is one of them, I didn't even mention that one yet. I figured with how much the devs hate France and how many debuffs they game them I figured asking for another research slot was way too much to ask or hope for.
 
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Delpheus

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same reason France start with only 6 MIL (previous patch). They are programmed to fail in 1940!
Yeah 6 ml is hilariously bad considering how much they invested in their military, making it arguably the most powerful military in the world at that time. The list of problems with France is so long and they're programmed to fail, but not in the way they did historically, but in hundreds of ways that don't make much sense.
 

Turboflex

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Yeah 6 ml is hilariously bad considering how much they invested in their military, making it arguably the most powerful military in the world at that time. The list of problems with France is so long and they're programmed to fail, but not in the way they did historically, but in hundreds of ways that don't make much sense.

What's Paradox supposed to do though? Have them stop Germany every time? War ends in 1940 every time (or even 1938)?

Historically it was a series of unbelievably bad decisions and failures of French political leadership, with some serious military mistakes thrown in too that created the catastrophe of May 1940. I just don't know how Paradox simulates this in the context of their game engine though without measures like that.
 

Delpheus

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What's Paradox supposed to do though? Have them stop Germany every time? War ends in 1940 every time (or even 1938)?

Historically it was a series of unbelievably bad decisions and failures of French political leadership, with some serious military mistakes thrown in too that created the catastrophe of May 1940. I just don't know how Paradox simulates this in the context of their game engine though without measures like that.

They can simulate it in the same way they do most other things. A lot of things like this are handled with focuses and events that come up and you often get to choose an outcome. Its decision based. France gets tons of pop ups about the rise of communism and you get to choose how to handle that.

there are things that can be done to make things more historical realistic and believable. The devs can still make it challenging for France to win in a way that makes sense. By making it unrealistic and non-historical it's just ridiculous.

They already crippled France with all the debuffs like I talked about, which are fine, because you can make decisions to remove them. They can incorporate the Strategic and tactical problems that France had that led to their downfall in the same way. My point is that the France in the game... isn't France. It is not the super power and military force that it should be.

Like you said it was a series of poor political and Military decisions. So why not that? Why not work that into the game instead of crippling in France in ways they were not actually crippled? Why not just make things more accurate?
 
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MrNewVegas

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They can simulate it in the same way they do most other things. A lot of things like this are handled with focuses and events that come up and you often get to choose an outcome. Its decision based. France gets tons of pop ups about the rise of communism and you get to choose how to handle that.

there are things that can be done to make things more historical realistic and believable. The devs can still make it challenging for France to win in a way that makes sense. By making it unrealistic and non-historical it's just ridiculous.

They already crippled France with all the debuffs like I talked about, which are fine, because you can make decisions to remove them. They can incorporate the Strategic and tactical problems that France had that led to their downfall in the same way. My point is that the France in the game... isn't France. It is not the super power and military force that it should be.

Like you said it was a series of poor political and Military decisions. So why not that? Why not work that into the game instead of crippling in France in ways they were not actually crippled? Why not just make things more accurate?
There's really no way to simulate the French taking their reserve divisions and trying to move them into the NL to the detriment of the forces designed to stop a breakthrough elsewhere in the line.
Say, the Ardennes.

The French are artificially cripped though and they had a perfectly good idea for the most part and would have done everything very well had the Belgians not completely cocked itup and found that secret planning document.
 

MrNewVegas

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The Germans really were ahead in tank development though, even if they did not have any tanks to speak of. Guderian was accounted as one of the experts in tank doctrine in basically all the world (certainly in all of Germany) by the Germans, despite having never actually stepped foot into a tank until 1929. The French did not use tanks correctly in any event, which contributes to why they lost.

It is not the only reason why they lost, which is why the so-called "blitzkrieg" was regarded by the Germans as a dumb sensationalisaion of the very old concept of a war-of-maneuver combined with concentration of firepower along a very small front, something the French actually pioneered in WW1
 

Delpheus

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The Germans really were ahead in tank development though, even if they did not have any tanks to speak of. Guderian was accounted as one of the experts in tank doctrine in basically all the world (certainly in all of Germany) by the Germans, despite having never actually stepped foot into a tank until 1929. The French did not use tanks correctly in any event, which contributes to why they lost.

It is not the only reason why they lost, which is why the so-called "blitzkrieg" was regarded by the Germans as a dumb sensationalisaion of the very old concept of a war-of-maneuver combined with concentration of firepower along a very small front, something the French actually pioneered in WW1

I'm not sure what you mean by the Germans being ahead in tank development though - they were not. I think people get really confused about the quality of German tanks in the early war because of how successful their tactical and strategic use of tanks was, it created a myth apparently that German tanks were better or they were ahead somehow. This was not the case at all until later in the war when the Germans did then rapidly advance.

In the early war, however, the Germans were indeed inferior.

The German prowess of using Tanks in a better way is already represented in the game - they gain massive boosts to the blitzkrieg doctrine to improve their use use of tanks while France cannot hope to begin researching and improving their land doctrine for quite a long time.

Since the difference in their use of tanks is already represented by their difference and advancement in doctrines, this is something I don't have much of a problem with.

However, the claim that Germans were ahead in production and in development is entirely inaccurate.

I'm only asking for the French tank advantage to be accurately represented and historical.

The French have nearly double the number of German tanks by the time of the invasion. Double including the Czech tanks the Germans stole. The number was somewhere around 4000 against 2400.

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TheKillingJoke

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I'd have no problem with a change with Engineers put into templates and having heavy tanks already researched

But the debuffs are there from having the massive French army from completely creaming Germany/Italy in the early game. Removing the great army debuff and having its mil factories down keeps it from just roflstomping.

I believe the French army is what... 3 full armies from the start + 2 in a fourth? Germany only starts with I believe a 24 and a 6.

Again thats splitting armies in their 24's.

So yes, I'd agree with changing the heavy tanks and adding Engineer to the infantry template. That sounds good to me.
 

jfoytek

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The Germans really were ahead in tank development though, even if they did not have any tanks to speak of. Guderian was accounted as one of the experts in tank doctrine in basically all the world (certainly in all of Germany) by the Germans, despite having never actually stepped foot into a tank until 1929. The French did not use tanks correctly in any event, which contributes to why they lost.

It is not the only reason why they lost, which is why the so-called "blitzkrieg" was regarded by the Germans as a dumb sensationalisaion of the very old concept of a war-of-maneuver combined with concentration of firepower along a very small front, something the French actually pioneered in WW1

Your right and wrong, Germans employed tanks well, and Heinz Guderian certainly was ahead of his time for tank warfare, and yes blitzkrieg was a solid doctrine.
However Most German tanks at the outbreak of the war could do nothing vs the Char B it simply had too much armor for the early war Panzer 2 and 3's to match up against.
But the Char B could have been out maneuvered by a turtle it was very slow. France employed it well on the Maginot line but couldn't exactly deploy it well to cut off the advancing german army. The S-35 also performed well against german armor in fact it was probably the best tank the french had because it could actually move, lol. However it was not invincible like the Char B was, and it was much easier for german armor to penetrate....

So German tanks were not invincible in fact tank vs tank Char B vs Pzr 2's and 3's went very badly for the germans. Its pretty much the reason the Pzr 3 were up gunned and the Pzr 4's were pushed out in larger numbers....
 
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