When turn based isn't turn based... A Murphy's Rule situation

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TLRoff

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Sep 13, 2018
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  • BATTLETECH
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Crusader Kings II
SO after several months now of playing there is a feature of the game I find is in my opinion BROKEN, and as a note, supremely irritating in whats supposed to be a "turn" based game.

In this particular instance it's a convoy escort mission..

my mech's are pacing the convoy and I send one mech off in an early phase to take care of a flanking mech before the silly thing takes one of the convoy vee's out. Lucky head shot with a PPC and target looses his head over it all.

TURN ENDS RIGHT THERE WITH NO ENEMIES LEFT EVEN THOUGH 3 OF MY 4 MECH'S HAVE NOT MOVED YET.

The convoy which happens to be in APC's that are seriously faster then all but one of my mech's go charging on ahead and the lead Vee motors into the objective/dustoff zone triggering the next wave of enemies.

Enemy, the convoy, and trailing are my mechs badly out of position. The OPFOR, why 4 light mech's of coarse who are sufficiently close to melee the Vee's which they proceed to do. Moments later I'm down two vee's, my light mech is still out of range even after a sprint.. My medium all are able to get into range, and for the most part hammer the opfor but only 2 of the 4 OPFOR mechs get fired on due to terrain and position. Next turn I loose the last 2 Vee's MISSION FAILED.

Ok I know what to expect from now on and will always hold up the convoy until I can get at least 2 mech's to the extraction zone ahead of time... well ahead of time..

But if the game had followed a recognized turn based game rule which is "Until all units have moved the turn does NOT advance." it's unlikely I would have been in a position to fail the mission.

Really wish with all my heart that you the DEV team would correct this rather anomalous bit of coding. Any other turn based computer game would consider this a bug. I know I do. It is not expected behavior and it's been this way since the game launched and obviously before and seriously complicates game play in a way that does not make any sort of logical sense.

Could you pretty please do something about this?
 
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I presume they did it because of how early the mission is and how many complaints on how hard it was or some other data indicating that it should be revised. None of the campaign missions are impacted by the difficulty setting in any case so that would no doubt of required more coding time to implement.

Bring 3 mechs or just stock perhaps that will give you q bit more challenge.
 
Adjusting the UI to allow more than 4 units isn't easy, but it can be done. The bigger problem is that the entire game is designed around the player having 4 mechs. All of the missions, the entire difficulty curve, is built around 4 mechs. It takes a LOT of work to change that.
 
Adjusting the UI to allow more than 4 units isn't easy, but it can be done. The bigger problem is that the entire game is designed around the player having 4 mechs. All of the missions, the entire difficulty curve, is built around 4 mechs. It takes a LOT of work to change that.
A lot of work and one determined and gifted Modding Community! : )
 
A lot of work and one determined and gifted Modding Community! : )
With all due respect to the modding community, there's a world of difference between making something for a mod and making something for the retail version of a game.
 
With all due respect to the modding community, there's a world of difference between making something for a mod and making something for the retail version of a game.

Assault class tons of extensive testing for a start. People will ignore/work around many things in a free mod. Not so much with a paid for game/DLC.
 
With all due respect to the modding community, there's a world of difference between making something for a mod and making something for the retail version of a game.
Ah, but HBS has already made available many of the levers (and our Modding Community has crafted others) required to re-scope BATTLETECH toward a 6 or even 8 Mech BATTLETECH Experience. Better AI from @Amechwarrior and Mission Control from @CWolfs go a long way toward enabling a very fun and challenge Larger-than-Lance BATTLETECH Experience.

So, yes, our talented and gifted Modding Community are already on the job. : )

2B821C05-4C95-4C0C-9A39-EE437279EDC1.jpeg

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SO after several months now of playing there is a feature of the game I find is in my opinion BROKEN, and as a note, supremely irritating in whats supposed to be a "turn" based game.

In this particular instance it's a convoy escort mission..

my mech's are pacing the convoy and I send one mech off in an early phase to take care of a flanking mech before the silly thing takes one of the convoy vee's out. Lucky head shot with a PPC and target looses his head over it all.

TURN ENDS RIGHT THERE WITH NO ENEMIES LEFT EVEN THOUGH 3 OF MY 4 MECH'S HAVE NOT MOVED YET.

The convoy which happens to be in APC's that are seriously faster then all but one of my mech's go charging on ahead and the lead Vee motors into the objective/dustoff zone triggering the next wave of enemies.

Enemy, the convoy, and trailing are my mechs badly out of position. The OPFOR, why 4 light mech's of coarse who are sufficiently close to melee the Vee's which they proceed to do. Moments later I'm down two vee's, my light mech is still out of range even after a sprint.. My medium all are able to get into range, and for the most part hammer the opfor but only 2 of the 4 OPFOR mechs get fired on due to terrain and position. Next turn I loose the last 2 Vee's MISSION FAILED.

Ok I know what to expect from now on and will always hold up the convoy until I can get at least 2 mech's to the extraction zone ahead of time... well ahead of time..

But if the game had followed a recognized turn based game rule which is "Until all units have moved the turn does NOT advance." it's unlikely I would have been in a position to fail the mission.

Really wish with all my heart that you the DEV team would correct this rather anomalous bit of coding. Any other turn based computer game would consider this a bug. I know I do. It is not expected behavior and it's been this way since the game launched and obviously before and seriously complicates game play in a way that does not make any sort of logical sense.

Could you pretty please do something about this?
Sometimes a convoy can become quite strung out along its line of march. This makes it even more difficult to maintain a Vanguard of a Mech or two in order to help deal with situations exactly like this.

And a quartet of AI Light Mechs, willing to use Melee against Allied Vehicles, really is the worst of possible luck in the scenario you describe. I’ve only had them concentrate Fires agains the relatively thin side armor.

Good job on having a Light Mech along. True, it was too far away to react in time, but if it had had been just that much closer and had Multi-Targetting it could have gotten the job done. :bow:
 
TURN ENDS RIGHT THERE WITH NO ENEMIES LEFT EVEN THOUGH 3 OF MY 4 MECH'S HAVE NOT MOVED YET.
Agreed. The game shouldn't end a turn or end combat unless I tell it to.

I have had too many experiences of "I kill a mech, the game ends the combat even though I have mechs to move, then the enemies get to move (gaining high evasiveness) then combat starts and the enemies get to move."
 
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i've seen a lot of things out of place, or just situations or scenarios where, you are basically, out numbered, out gunned and out paced. I've adopted the Darkest Dungeon mindset. You are going to lose Mechs, pilots, missions and, thats just the way it is.
 
Also how about the first turn when you make contact with the enemy and you dont get an option to shoot? I guess I just cant shoot because... reasons.
If you’ll notice, the side that first establishes contact has that Turn to best position itself for the coming battle. The other side, the side that lost the “Movement to Contact” Phase, does not get that turn to best position itself for the coming battle, it is forced to roll into combat likely out of position and to a degree, unhinged.

So there are indeed “Reasons/Opportunities/Advantages” to initiating Contact with the AI/your opponent.
 
If you’ll notice, the side that first establishes contact has that Turn to best position itself for the coming battle. The other side, the side that lost the “Movement to Contact” Phase, does not get that turn to best position itself for the coming battle, it is forced to roll into combat likely out of position and to a degree, unhinged.

So there are indeed “Reasons/Opportunities/Advantages” to initiating Contact with the AI/your opponent.

I do see some minor advantage to making first contact, this being the case, I dont understand why regular combat initiative isnt followed while OPFOR is on the field. I understand its faster to have free movement while contact hasnt been established but it isnt necessary and from what Ive read the swapping in and out of these movement phases causes more than a few issues.
 
I do see some minor advantage to making first contact, this being the case, I dont understand why regular combat initiative isnt followed while OPFOR is on the field. I understand its faster to have free movement while contact hasnt been established but it isnt necessary and from what Ive read the swapping in and out of these movement phases causes more than a few issues.
While there are some issues, HBS very methodically developed BATTLETECH’s Turn Order System.

As I recall seven separate Turn Order Systems were modeled and with Vertical Slice Game Development, put to the test.

Rightly so, HBS began with tabletop Turn Order and it was quickly found wanting, very wanting for a 2015 PC Computer Game and set aside,

One of HBS’s Design Goals was to address an original BattleTech fault - that of a Light and Medium Mech’s vulnerability and viability in anything but the earliest missions of the game.

It was Kiva (aka HBS_Thratchen, errr... HBS_Kiva...) who came up with what we have now. It was this current system that Jordan and Mitch found that best realizes BATTLETECH’s Design Goals.

:bow:
 
While there are some issues, HBS very methodically developed BATTLETECH’s Turn Order System.

As I recall seven separate Turn Order Systems were modeled and with Vertical Slice Game Development, put to the test.

Rightly so, HBS began with tabletop Turn Order and it was quickly found wanting, very wanting for a 2015 PC Computer Game and set aside,

One of HBS’s Design Goals was to address an original BattleTech fault - that of a Light and Medium Mech’s vulnerability and viability in anything but the earliest missions of the game.

It was Kiva (aka HBS_Thratchen, errr... HBS_Kiva...) who came up with what we have now. It was this current system that Jordan and Mitch found that best realizes BATTLETECH’s Design Goals.

:bow:


I dont understand the argument in favor of this turn mechanic. Light and Medium mechs play just fine. Sometimes, yes you can move your first light far up the field and discover a bad position (thats why I always park my scout behind cover so at least they wont get teamed up). Also, they are able to stack more evasion than heavier mechs.

The only thing I see making light and Medium mechs irrelevant is progression through the game, taking higher rated missions, you are stuck with a four mech team and you cant sacrifice the tonnage.
 
If anything, I would make the argument that regular combat initiative makes fast more appealing because you have a better chance of getting the first shot. This plays equally for each side and can make a light strike team almost devastating if you are able to pounce on a single target. Bear in mind the trade off for that is, you cant take take much damage in return.

Just because you are able to run one mech far ahead and possibly do light to medium damage with it, doesnt mean that the next turn on initiative is going to be yours and you could just as easily find your Light mech in a bad situation if you arent careful.
 
I dont understand the argument in favor of this turn mechanic. Light and Medium mechs play just fine...
In BATTLETECH, the reason why Light and Medium Mechs play so very well is directly attributed to Kiva’s Turn Order.
 
...Just because you are able to run one mech far ahead and possibly do light to medium damage with it, doesnt mean that the next turn on initiative is going to be yours and you could just as easily find your Light mech in a bad situation if you arent careful.
Truly.
Even with the advantages afforded Lighter BattleMechs under HBS-brand Turn Order, care must be exercised as the Enemy gets a Vote... and a Move/Fire/Kill-Chain. : )