When To Build Infrastructure Over CIV

When To Build Infrastructure Over CIV

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desphorin

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Steel is always in high demand, yes. But the mechanics of *trade influence* dictates that Fascist Germany are unlikely to get a lot of demand of its steel, because most countries in Europe at that time are not fascist. As stipulated in the wiki, trade influence changes with a number of factors, including support (popularity) of the political party with the same ideology as the exporting country. And since there are quite some democratic countries that can export a good amount of steel in Europe (UK and Sweden iirc), the demand will go there first. If you swap ideology to democratic, then Germany may get a lot more demand for its resources.
 
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Steel is always in high demand, yes. But the mechanics of *trade influence* dictates that Fascist Germany are unlikely to get a lot of demand of its steel, because most countries in Europe at that time are not fascist. As stipulated in the wiki, trade influence changes with a number of factors, including support (popularity) of the political party with the same ideology as the exporting country. And since there are quite some democratic countries that can export a good amount of steel in Europe (UK and Sweden iirc), the demand will go there first. If you swap ideology to democratic, then Germany may get a lot more demand for its resources.
Is it worthwhile in sp to trade influence Italy, Hungary etc?
 
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desphorin

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Is it worthwhile in sp to trade influence Italy, Hungary etc?
I assume you are asking it is worthwhile to boost trade influence on them?

Without doing any testing I would say maybe on Hungary but not Italy. Italy has a lot of common resources as germany, and since the AI does not like to switch trade laws, it will maybe have to take until ww2 broke out for Italy to start needing to import stuff. Your pp, spies or whatever you use to improve trade influence will probably more useful elsewhere than to nick that 1 or 2 civ (that they may randomly decide to just cancel after some weeks).

Fascist Hungary doesnt have any steel so they are bound to trade some. Germany and Italy are the obvious target, so if they decide to trade with Italy but not you Germany, it might be useful to spend some resources to persuade them. But without testing, I am unsure if those means would be worthwile.
 
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XselenS

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If you aren't playing a democracy than the resource surplus will most likely not be bought. Democracies get a trade bonus and neutrals will trade with neutrals and democracies first. Democracies will nearly always only trade with democracies. There are not enough fascist or communist nations in the game to justify free trade because the question is "free trade with whom?" If you are playing Sweden or the UK sure. If you are playing Germany, Italy or Russia, then nope.

Also, most trade deals are done in the first week of gameplay. Good luck striking a trade deal with a nation and taking trade away from another nation. That mechanic simply does not exist.
 
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God bless all the patience being shown in this thread o_O
 
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Emren

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Steel is always in high demand. You start at 250 surplus available for trade on 1/1/1936 (I just checked,) and as you've noticed per your own screenshots, you go down to 0 because everyone wants to buy your steel, at least the steel you're not using. :D So yeah, you should have plenty of steel for sale on the open market and a lot of CIVs for it.

But that assumes that you are correct about having +20 steel from 4 levels of Infrastructure. Which should net you 2.5 CIVs.
I don't think you're grasping the fact that just because you're "exporting" something, that someone else is buying it and paying for it. You go down to 0 on steel because you keep only 20% of it, regardless of whether anyone else wants it. In fact, Germany has a really tough time getting anyone to buy anything it exports at the start of the game, and steel doesn't really get scarce until the mid-game at the earliest.
 

blahmaster6k

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The Green and Red numbers are showing you whether or not you have goods for export. If you have less than 8, you simply cannot export ANY surplus.
I do not think the interface means, what you think it means.

Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke, even though this has already been addressed in a more friendly and explanatory manner by others. I'm glad this thread has stayed civil so far. In all seriousness, most resources you're selling are not going to be purchased by the AI until later in the game when countries have enough military factories to require more resources than they produce domestically. And only fascist countries and Axis allies are going to want to import from Germany, so your export pool is limited further by that. You can hover over each of the numbers in the resource UI to see exactly what is happening to each of your resources, including the breakdown of who is buying what. I can't open the game right now, but when people are buying your resources, it should look something like this:

Out of 330 steel, we have 234 left for export.
Current Exports:
64/64 to Japan
8/8 to Italy
8/8 to Hungary
8/8 to Romania
8/8 to Albania
 
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Ok, I've read what everyone wrote. I just have to do a test game. It appears from the comments that you can't do Free Trade. The benefits of Free Trade are just too expensive. You get some increased build speeds and research speeds and you lose a lot more CIV than you bargained for, due to having to pay for goods with CIV.
 

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You get some increased build speeds and research speeds and you lose a lot more CIV than you bargained for, due to having to pay for goods with CIV.
The build and research speeds are way more valuable than resources in the early game. I dont trade for any resource that isnt for equipment that I'm actually going to be using, which I generally wont have unlocked for at least a year or two.
 
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blahmaster6k

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The build and research speeds are way more valuable than resources in the early game. I dont trade for any resource that isnt for equipment that I'm actually going to be using, which I generally wont have unlocked for at least a year or two.
On Germany at least, I have to trade 3 factories for rubber and 3 for Aluminum once switching to Free Trade due to my tendency to put 18 factories on planes from day 1 (15 ftr 3 split between CAS and NAV). Whether this is optimal or not, I don't know. I'd still say free trade is worth 6 CIC, since I'm not going to need to import more than that for a very long time.
 

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Ok, I've read what everyone wrote. I just have to do a test game. It appears from the comments that you can't do Free Trade. The benefits of Free Trade are just too expensive. You get some increased build speeds and research speeds and you lose a lot more CIV than you bargained for, due to having to pay for goods with CIV.
Free Trade performs best in team multiplayer, where you can form your own trade cartels with other human players on your team.

So (for example) Italy, Germany, Romania, and Hungary all go free trade and trade back and forth with each other to keep the civs on-side, only going outside to pick up things your entire group lacks, e.g. rubber.
 

desphorin

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On Germany at least, I have to trade 3 factories for rubber and 3 for Aluminum once switching to Free Trade due to my tendency to put 18 factories on planes from day 1 (15 ftr 3 split between CAS and NAV). Whether this is optimal or not, I don't know. I'd still say free trade is worth 6 CIC, since I'm not going to need to import more than that for a very long time.

I do the same but on Export focus. I think putting that many on fighters is definitely not optimal if you go free trade. But honestly I also dont know what you should produce else with that many mils from the start, I dont need more shitty infantry equipment or arty than a couple of mils on them. So maybe converting mils to civs to lower the consumer goods is really plausible?
 

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On Germany at least, I have to trade 3 factories for rubber and 3 for Aluminum once switching to Free Trade due to my tendency to put 18 factories on planes from day 1 (15 ftr 3 split between CAS and NAV). Whether this is optimal or not, I don't know. I'd still say free trade is worth 6 CIC, since I'm not going to need to import more than that for a very long time.
In another thread I went into how much I neglect the airforce. But even if you did want a bunch of fighters as Germany, why do you want a bunch of fighter 1's?

6 civs when you've only got 23 and are supposedly doing agency stuff is only leaving you with 12 civs when you could have 18. You're cutting your growth down to only 66% of what it would otherwise be, for a bunch of fighter 1?
 
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blahmaster6k

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In another thread I went into how much I neglect the airforce. But even if you did want a bunch of fighters as Germany, why do you want a bunch of fighter 1's?

6 civs when you've only got 23 and are supposedly doing agency stuff is only leaving you with 12 civs when you could have 18. You're cutting your growth down to only 66% of what it would otherwise be, for a bunch of fighter 1?
Yeah, it isn't optimal for factory count, like I said, it's just a habit. It would only be 3 factories in MP due to trade backs which makes it less of a problem there, though it still is ~17% reduction to construction output which definitely sucks. In SP I feel like I don't have to be optimal all the time since the AI will have half or less of the factory count that a player would on every other country anyway (USSR AI builds MIC in 36, lol). After 5 months your intel agency civs go away and you're usually on war economy by then, so it's not as bad unless you're paying for collaboration governments right away, in which case it can be pretty terrible for 60 days. After I get 175 air experience they become +5 engine fighter 1s which are almost as useful as base FTR 2, and can get you a good numbers advantage early war before you can have enough FTR 2 production.

I haven't played mp in a long time so maybe it's an outdated strategy, but back when I did the Axis basically had to put as many factories on fighters at the start as possible or the UK+USA +CAN would outnumber you over France. But you are definitely right that it's not the most efficient use of factories, I will try some different builds that don't produce as much air at the start and see how it goes. Out of curiosity, what does your production look like when you play Germany at the start, and when do you ramp up air? Do you produce only a few FTR 1? Do you not produce any air until you get licensed Romanian FTR 2? Do you wait until you research ftr 2 yourself? There are a lot of different ways people play so it's always interesting learning what other people find best.
 

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Out of curiosity, what does your production look like when you play Germany at the start, and when do you ramp up air?
I used to play Germany a lot more a few patches ago, it was 1 on fighters to just replace the losses and keep the numbers up a bit, and 1 on transports to let me jump across to Britain and cap the UK once the war broke out. That was it. Once that was done, I had basically no use for the airforce anymore and cut their production completely in favor of more tanks to finish of France/benelux and then get ready for the Soviets. And after the soviets, I was done with the game and would just do another run. I mostly play Soviets now, and neglect air to a more complete degree without any production of them at all.
 
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blahmaster6k

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I used to play Germany a lot more a few patches ago, it was 1 on fighters to just replace the losses and keep the numbers up a bit, and 1 on transports to let me jump across to Britain and cap the UK once the war broke out. That was it. Once that was done, I had basically no use for the airforce anymore and cut their production completely in favor of more tanks to finish of France/benelux and then get ready for the Soviets. And after the soviets, I was done with the game and would just do another run. I mostly play Soviets now, and neglect air to a more complete degree without any production of them at all.
Yeah, no-air Soviets is definitely a winning strategy and one I've seen a lot. But I just finished reading through the comments you posted on your neglect of air as Germany and I don't personally agree with them. I find that having green air is incredibly useful and important, especially against the Allies who love to strat bomb. I don't think I've ever seen a MP game where the Axis went no-air, and it was pretty heavily derided as a meme strategy outside of the USSR. But that's just my school of thought. In addition, you talk about paradropping the UK before France is even capitulated, and I find that incredibly memey and not very fun, since the AI can't deal with paratroopers at all. More power to you though if you're going for quick wins. Thanks for the answer!
 
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Meglok

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Last time I checked, distance, relations, and ideology affected trade influence. And most nations won't like Germany for very long, if ever. It doesn't matter how much you have on the market if it is available from a more well-liked nation, an ally of, and/or a nation far away from the buying nation.
 

Paul.Ketcham

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Just a few tips, since the big issues I wanted to mention already were:

1.) Germany is going to trade a thousand times better if you go monarchist, than if you are fascist; as nonaligned, you're going to get worldwide trades from everyone from China to Argentina to Greece.

2.) Timing and ideology are critical (democratic/nonaligned are the best traders). Too early, and people still have their own steel, too few mils to need more, and too few civs to buy much. A few years in, you see more getting bought. This is why Germany does poor in 1936 with trade, but much better in 1939 (when there are more fascists and Axis nations, and more steel demands).

3.) Steel is the main resource the AI always buys, because it uses it on everything and few minors have much (here and there random nations like Greece and Chile have some, but mostly its concentrated in the major powers). By the late game, there's a clear deficit of steel throughout the whole planet.

4.) Aluminum and rubber are sometimes worthwhile, while oil is a tossup (since oil gets bought for a little while, then stockpiles fill up and it stops). A lot more minor powers have aluminum, however, and rubber isn't a good sale while France, Malaysia, and Indonesia are still at peace. Tungsten gets better over time (early its just a bit for artillery and AT), but demand never goes up that much, while chromium is basically not used by the AI (they don't build jets, heavy tanks, or capital ships...which basically represents every possible use of chromium).
 
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porta80

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This topic has been slightly addressed but in a very confusing way.

Prevailing Advice: 1936 Germany start, build CIV, only build CIV for the first 1-2 years.

Cute advice but this advice needs to be tempered with a bit of math. CIVs cost 10,500 vs Infrastructure 3,000. That means for every CIV you build you could instead build 3 and ½ infrastructures. Instead of 2 CIVs you could build 7 infrastructures.

Click on the infrastructure button and you will see the goods being produced. Now click on a province once and see how much of a return on investment you are getting from a single infrastructure increase. Is it 2+ goods?

Is Niederschliesen giving you +5 goods per level of Infrastructure built? 4 infrastructure gives you +20 goods, that’s 2.5 CIVs on the open market for the price of 1 CIV.

Build Infrastructure, especially if you went Free Trade, in provinces that produce a lot of natural goods. If your Infrastructure gives you 2 or more goods from an Infrastructure improvement, then do it and it now. The Excavation bonuses will only increase your return on investment.

EDIT: Please be aware that if a good is not being exported by anyone, then it won't be exported from you, either and you may need to hold off on increasing production of goods that are not desirable in 1936, such as Aluminum.

Sorry to tell you but your math is wrong.

You can not compare 10800 cic vs 3000 infra if your neglecting three fact that cic buildtime is influenced by existing infra but building infra is not.
In a lvl 8 infra state it takes exactly the same time building 2 additional infra vs building 1 civ. And the payback time for these 2 infra is exactly 10 civs so you need states with atleast 11 free building slots to be even.

There are only! around 8-10 states on the whole map where you can potentially have those 11 or more free building slots so economical you do not have a disadvantage building infra first in every other state you have a disadvantage doing infra first.

Build infra for supply only economically its worthless.

Resources are neglectable what Germany has is plenty of steel and some aluminium.

Early on you noone of the ai in SP is traiding with you anyway and later on you may switch back to different trade laws.

Read from what I wrote here and following
 
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