When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

WeissRaben · May 31, 2014

Ofaloaf said:
But come on, anybody who studies the Early Middle Ages should appreciate that birth & rise of Islam was a key point in history and integral part of what made the Early Middle Ages the Early Middle Ages.

It made the Early Middle Ages our Early Middle Ages. Which is not what I want to see.

ekorovin · May 31, 2014

WeissRaben said:
It made the Early Middle Ages our Early Middle Ages. Which is not what I want to see.

We can't invent some weird but plausible religions and events and completely ignore the real events that shaped the world.

loup99 · May 31, 2014

There is definetly two different opinons on these questions (not only and I'm feeling a bit of both):

One that wants to see what happened historically and concentrate as much as possible on that
One that wants to see butterfly effects, what-if scenarions and dynamism as much as possible with the main focus being there

I think that the balance between the two needs to be the follwing: Leaving it open to happen exactly as history while giving the events dynamical options. This is just my two cents, however.

Enlil · May 31, 2014

I'd just like to thank Joemit for the Event pictures, they look really good!

Erik W · May 31, 2014

Joemit · May 31, 2014

Enlil said:
I'd just like to thank Joemit for the Event pictures, they look really good!

Thanks!
Also, I'll do all those ones Erik W just suggested.

Erik W · May 31, 2014

The last suggestions for the day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohammed_kaaba_1315.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohammed_receiving_revelation_from_the_angel_Gabriel.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maome.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Gagarin_PropovedMagometGRM.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Piero_della_Francesca_021.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...aclius_taking_the_Holy_Cross_to_Jerusalem.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Anoushiravan.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Byzantine_temple_in_Idlib_(Ruweiha)_Syria.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Libya_4983_Tadrart_Acacus_Luca_Galuzzi_2007.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Pella_House_atrium.jpg

Enlil · May 31, 2014

Changelog

Nations:
Hunnic Empire has been reduced in size and strength

New Swede, Norse, and Lappish tribes in Scandinavia

Cultures:

Massalian has been "killed" from the game

Religions:

Georgian Orthodox now will join Chalcedonian or Miaphysite much more often then not.

Events:

New flavor events for the Roman Senate

Enlil · May 31, 2014

Also, I have some questions:

What are some good Slavic tribes I can put in Russia

I can't find a good source on Bolghar paganism, looks to much like Tengri currently.

tsf4 · May 31, 2014

Okay Enlil - here is the best thing I could find.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD_500Western_Huns.gif

Most of the history regarding "individual" tribes seems chaotic, but this map (hopefully) will give you some ideas. Mostly, regarding the Slavs, they were migrating to Poland and the Danube on the heels or mixed with Huns and Avars. It seems that there was a Avar Khanate residing somewhere near the Causcaus/north of the Black Sea.

Enlil · May 31, 2014

tsf4 said:
Okay Enlil - here is the best thing I could find.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD_500Western_Huns.gif

Most of the history regarding "individual" tribes seems chaotic, but this map (hopefully) will give you some ideas. Mostly, regarding the Slavs, they were migrating to Poland and the Danube on the heels or mixed with Huns and Avars. It seems that there was a Avar Khanate residing somewhere near the Causcaus/north of the Black Sea.

It won't let me load the map

tsf4 · May 31, 2014

Try this: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Huns_Gmyrya/Huns_Gmyrya02En.htm

Joemit · May 31, 2014

Here are those images Erik W suggested.
View attachment More Suggestions.rar
And here is a loading screen I did. I don't think it's really that good, because of the differing art styles.

geiseric · May 31, 2014

WeissRaben said:
It made the Early Middle Ages our Early Middle Ages. Which is not what I want to see.

Not necessarily. Just that one part.

Erik W said:
Well, we decided to make Islam a little more flexible at start. Historically it starts out as a heresy of Arabic Paganism but if another religion is dominant in Mecca then Islam becomes a heresy of that religion instead. If you want further info on this, please find it in the earlier discussion regarding Islam. But you can rest easy, I think we never mentioned anything about changing the titles/names

As a fact, the Muslim army that was sent to conquer Mesopotamia was only 18 000 strong, while, even after a long war, the Persians actually fielded an army equal in size. Twice as large if you count its Arab Allies.

Well yeah but these where real people who used advanced tactics, this is an AI which is rather incompetent. That has to factor in. You can't factor in history while ignoring game mechanics.

ekorovin · May 31, 2014

I no longer believe that Bulghars, Alans etc should receive separate religions, I think it would be better to create a generic Iranian paganism for them, most of Afghanistan and parts of Central Asia.
As for Slavic tribes - I don't think there's any reliable information on separate tribes in 480.

Erik W · May 31, 2014

geiseric said:
Well yeah but these where real people who used advanced tactics, this is an AI which is rather incompetent. That has to factor in.

Which is exactly my point! It would require human intuition, military briliance and insight to create that huge an Empire with so few resources, which is why in the vast majority of games, Islam will not create a huge ass-crushing Empire. Period, case and closed

Ofaloaf · May 31, 2014

Erik W said:
Which is exactly my point! It would require human intuition, military briliance and insight to create that huge an Empire with so few resources, which is why in the vast majority of games, Islam will not create a huge ass-crushing Empire. Period, case and closed

It would require human intuition, military brilliance and insight to do a lot of things, like the Merovingian Empire, Justinian's conquests, Theodoric's takeover of Italy, or even, to go back to vanilla CK2, the birth and growth of the Mongol Empire, the rise of Tamerlane, the rise of the Seljuks, or even the Hashashin. And yet, they're there, in the game, and it's a good thing they're in there.

Concerns about butterflies and the capabilities of man should take a backseat to gameplay and world-building, which is how it's done in the vanilla game and how it tends to be expanded upon in various projects (the creation of Rum and the Bulgarian Empire revolts are great and really ought to be included in vanilla). Mechanics and events are meant to compensate for the AI's inability to be a brilliant mastermind, a great khan, etc.

loup99 · May 31, 2014

The main difference between the mongols and seljuks and hordes in vanilla and The Rise of Islam is that Islam is within the map and the others ouside of it. Also the french community (and me too) thinks that mongol invasions are too hardcoded in vanilla also so taking vanilla as an example when making a mod for a game is not always the best (not saying that it should be radically different, though) The mongols are in vanilla, not forced to invade exactly as they did historically and it is hard for the game to make butterfly effects to outside of the map.

romeport · May 31, 2014

Enlil said:
Also, I have some questions:

What are some good Slavic tribes I can put in Russia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people

Also, in Crimea in this period were living a mix of Goths and Alans. And they were vassals of Byzantium.
I helped with Ukraine and Crimea area in Saeculum Obscurum, maybe I can help somehow here?)

Zusk · May 31, 2014

I think having a "Scythian" religion for the iranian steppe cultures and a "Tengri" religion for the Altaics such as the Cumans works.

When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

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