When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Of course, barbarians inside need to give the emperor bonuses, like a mercenary company. A lot of barbarian leaders were referred to as kings, so I suppose you could make them petty kings with a mercenary company inside the empire if you didn't want them to be actual kings, and if you can't have landless counts then maybe they could just become courtiers.

That starts to make things complicated. Trying to tie merc companies and vassals and courtiers all together.

What if the barbarians are vassalized as my above suggestion (granted if it works) and part of the WP gives the emperor event troops, like 2-5k of them?

 

[Joemit]

That starts to make things complicated. Trying to tie merc companies and vassals and courtiers all together.

What if the barbarians are vassalized as my above suggestion (granted if it works) and part of the WP gives the emperor event troops, like 2-5k of them?

Yeah, that'd be a good idea, maybe a few more than that, seeing as you're giving away a whole duchy. Maybe around 8k?
If we're using my suggestion for legions, there need to be enough barbarians to make a difference, although weaker than the legions.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Yeah, that'd be a good idea, maybe a few more than that, seeing as you're giving away a whole duchy. Maybe around 8k?
If we're using my suggestion for legions, there need to be enough barbarians to make a difference, although weaker than the legions.

The legions will be interesting because they should get weaker with time instead of stronger, as mercs do as of now.

Also remember: barbarians within the gates was a bad thing for the Romans. You are giving up a duchy, gaining some troops, and have a weaker position. These barbarians were not loyal to the Romans. They were loyal to their commanders, loyal to money, and wanted little to do with the Romans. Look at the Visigoths. They wrestled most of the west away from Rome essentially from within.

 

[Joemit]

Sometimes barbarians could be a good thing for the emperor, sometimes not, but you definitely get a short-term gain of lots more troops in the army, even if they are pretty rebellious. However, the barbarians would be eventually Romanised by educating their children to be Romans, if they didn't rebel and take tonnes of land.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Sometimes barbarians could be a good thing for the emperor, sometimes not, but you definitely get a short-term gain of lots more troops in the army, even if they are pretty rebellious. However, the barbarians would be eventually Romanised by educating their children to be Romans.

Barbarian settlers had never been a good thing for Rome. They didn't learn Latin, they didn't romanize, they didn't become citizens like previous conquests. They didn't because they often times felt superior to the Romans and often were correct.

 

[Joemit]

Barbarian settlers had never been a good thing for Rome. They didn't learn Latin, they didn't romanize, they didn't become citizens like previous conquests. They didn't because they often times felt superior to the Romans and often were correct.

Theoretically they were good for Rome, not in practice.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Theoretically they were good for Rome, not in practice.

Then in practice (i.e. what they give in game terms) they should be bad, not good.

 

[Joemit]

Then in practice (i.e. what they give in game terms) they should be bad, not good.

I think we can agree on good in the short term (event troops), bad in the long term (a horde of rebellious barbarians inside the realm).

 

[Erik W]

I think we can agree on good in the short term (event troops), bad in the long term (a horde of rebellious barbarians inside the realm).

If the Romans doesn´t Romanize them first, I mean, they could choose to prioritze it again.

 

[loup99]

About the Franks: is it possible to add an Event, when the frankish King is really old and has many Sons, were he can choose which son inherits which Duchy? Im not expierienced in modding thow so i dont know if that works.

I'm not a modding expert. Maybe you can make a honorary title like the one that exist for republics. The problem with this too is that merovingian kings did never get very old. Maybe once you get a son you need to decide which land he will get?

I think we can agree on good in the short term (event troops), bad in the long term (a horde of rebellious barbarians inside the realm).

Not event troups, permanent troups that defend the empire from other barbarians. And the title they should get should be a duchy and not something tribal. They should get the dejure duchy that was already there.

 

[Erik W]

Not event troups, permanent troups that defend the empire from other barbarians. And the title they should get should be a duchy and not something tribal. They should get the dejure duchy that was already there.

I agree on the troops. But is there any way to give them a titular duchy that doesn´t become dejure after 100 years, if not the Emperor decide to actually settle them in one place.

Example:

The Goths under Alaric I are fleeing from the Huns and arrive on the Danube River.
Emperor Theodosius allows them into the ERE. (In game terms, Alaric is granted a titular duchy called "The Goths", a mercenary company called "The Goths" and abandons his original title.)

OPTION 1:
The Goths remain titular forever, paving the way for resentment, demands for land and eventually rebellion.

OPTION 2:
Theodosius gives them land... somewhere and starts to Romanize them. (In game terms, Theodosius grants a county to Alaric, thereby destroying his titular "The Goths" title, that province instantly becomes Gothic culture and religion. The mecenary company is tied to the county capital and disappear once a non-Goth takes control of it.

 

[Joemit]

I agree on the troops. But is there any way to give them a titular duchy that doesn´t become dejure after 100 years, if not the Emperor decide to actually settle them in one place.

Example:

The Goths under Alaric I are fleeing from the Huns and arrive on the Danube River.
Emperor Theodosius allows them into the ERE. (In game terms, Alaric is granted a titular duchy called "The Goths", a mercenary company called "The Goths" and abandons his original title.)

OPTION 1:
The Goths remain titular forever, paving the way for resentment, demands for land and eventually rebellion.

OPTION 2:
Theodosius gives them land... somewhere and starts to Romanize them. (In game terms, Theodosius grants a county to Alaric, thereby destroying his titular "The Goths" title, that province instantly becomes Gothic culture and religion. The mecenary company is tied to the county capital and disappear once a non-Goth takes control of it.

Good idea, but how do they get into the empire the in the first place? Decision, event, war?

 

[Joemit]

Sorry, double post.

 

[unmerged(55197)]

Actually the Franks should be split up into three kingdoms at the start: Ripuarian Franks, Salian Franks and the kingdom of Chararic, king at Cambrai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chararic_(Frankish_king). I think the Saeculum Obscurum mod has split it this way too.

 

[Erik W]

Good idea, but how do they get into the empire the in the first place? Decision, event, war?

I think that there should be a decision for Barbarian rulers with a border with the Empire, a decision that sends a request for entrance to the Emperor. If he accepts, my example would play out. If he refuses, the tribe is left to be devoured by others.

Another thing, all barbarian tribes should have a "Settlement" CB against all the civilized people (all that has Legalism III), not just the Romans. By this, Barbarians would have excuses to invade Persia, China and later, post-Romano-Frankish civilized Europe

 

[loup99]

Actually the Franks should be split up into three kingdoms at the start: Ripuarian Franks, Salian Franks and the kingdom of Chararic, king at Cambrai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chararic_(Frankish_king). I think the Saeculum Obscurum mod has split it this way too.

That article in english is not really correct; they where a part of the Salians franks that was only half-independant if I understand correctly. They should while the other Frankish tribes are kingdoms be a little duchy. Also there is very little reference to him and he is only cited once by Grégoire de Tours. He should at start the start also have a son and be a cousin or a sibling to Clovis (and maybe neohew to Childeric) as the Ripuary Franks should be and therfor allied. If Childeric or Clovis chooses to make a move against Syiagrius all of the others should also follow him and help him out.

 

[Erik W]

That article in english is not really correct; they where a part of the Salians franks that was only half-independant if I understand correctly. They should while the other Frankish tribes are kingdoms be a little duchy. Also there is very little reference to him and he is only cited once by Grégoire de Tours.

So Chararic should be the second power-man of the Salians?

 

[loup99]

So Chararic should be the second power-man of the Salians?

Yes kind of, but weaker than Childeric that really at the start date should be seen as the strongest of all of the Franks. I edited that post a bit more to tell about their situation. How is the situation in Britannia, they have this part of the msap included and should have an accurate balance in the region.

 

[Enlil]

What about other kings like Ragnachar

 

[loup99]

What about other kings like Ragnachar

There are so many of them that maybe you do not need to model them all in game. Ragnachar was a petty king, and he can be vassal or a little titular duke near Childeric. Maybe if Clovis or Childeric unifies the main kings (the ripuaries and the salians) the other can swear featlthy to the one that has done that?

Maybe for the bookmarks you could add a bookmark where Clovis has converted and the franks settled down?