When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Joemit]

Oh awesome. But which file do you paste that into?

Edit: And I agree that it makes so much harder to gain large territories, which I think balances the Roman legions out when used.

You put it in 00_cb_types, under the Imperial Reconquest on_success part.

 

[Qantrix]

No, the Rhine-Elbe borders are perfect. If we expand it to the Vistula, then all of Germania would be one single kingdom. No, Germania should atleast contain the following kingdoms:

Germania Magna
Vindelicia
Germania Slavica (if we can´t find another kingdom, then everything from the Elbe to the Vistula)
Cimbria (Jutland was called Cimbria in this period)

Wouldn't it be weird to call the Kingdom Greater Germania while calling the Empire Germania? Logically the names should be the other way around. Germania Slavica is a bit anachronistic because Slavic migration across the Vistula was only beginning in the 5th century. While it should be likely it's by no means certain the area will be populated by Slavs. Germania transalbis might be a more neutral name.

 

[Tabris01]

Why not call "Germania magna" "Germania libera", and the empire "Germania magna"?

 

[richvh]

If you're going to call the area between the Elbe and Vistula "Germania Transalbis", then calling the area between the Elbe and Rhine "Germania Cisalbis" makes sense

 

[Zusk]

Enlil, I cant find the Germanic Pagan or Steppe Paganism in the religion file you uploaded a while back, is it outdated or do you have Germans and the Steppe Paganism under something else like the generic "Pagan" religion but just changed the localization?

 

[shadow121292]

Just joining in on the thread but I've been following for a little while very interested in the premise I do think that the Germania situation and it's kingdoms/empires should be based on the tribes in the region and how long they had inhabited. In the case of Germania the empire itself it should only be Germania Magna if ruled by a Roman/Roman derived nation while Germania should be for a normal ethnic german. The title Germania Magna represented those territories outside Roman control so a German desiring to only claim imperial territory in those regions would be folly.

Certain Roman provinces like Rhaetia(Or Raetia the classical terms used the former more commonly) shouldn't exist because the Alamanni had been in control of the region for some generations meaning they should actually be the de jure rulers. The Saxons should also be a de jure kingdom in the region of what is now Hannover but old Saxony since they had inhabited and ruled the region for generations. Certain provinces along the Germania border should be as of the present moment a de jure German state but in the event of a Roman reconquest the old provinces of Rhaetia, Noricum, Germania Inferior, and Germania Superior should return as de jure.

Also I'm unsure if you've changed the situation in North Africa but I would reduce the amount of Donatism in the region. It should still exist since the records of them end with the Muslim conquest but efforts on behalf of St. Augustine and the Empire had reduced their power and influence.

The Roman culture in Italy should also be increased as it is rather small.

I hope that I can help with stuff in the future! Thanks for the great idea!

 

[DoctorPainkiler]

I'm pretty damn annoyed that I've let this slip under my radar. Looks great so far, keep up the good work!

 

[Some Player]

I've been accompaning this thread for some time, but unfortunately had nothing to add... Until now.

I see defining the de jure setup has generated a lot of different opinions and I'd like to propose a solution. Considering the many different groups that inhabited most regions during this period, it might be a good idea to use a system similar to that present in the Winter King mod, in which, by controlling certain provinces (the CK2 kind, not the roman one) and creating a title, you trigger an event that changes the de jure setup. While this might be somewhat complex it probably would be one of the best ways to portrait the rise and fall of kindoms during the migration period.

Please feel free to say what you think abou this idea, and if there's any interest I might volunteer to try and implement this.

 

[loup99]

I've been accompaning this thread for some time, but unfortunately had nothing to add... Until now.

I see defining the de jure setup has generated a lot of different opinions and I'd like to propose a solution. Considering the many different groups that inhabited most regions during this period, it might be a good idea to use a system similar to that present in the Winter King mod, in which, by controlling certain provinces (the CK2 kind, not the roman one) and creating a title, you trigger an event that changes the de jure setup. While this might be somewhat complex it probably would be one of the best ways to portrait the rise and fall of kindoms during the migration period.

Please feel free to say what you think abou this idea, and if there's any interest I might volunteer to try and implement this.

For the Franks unfication decision this would be good. For other tribes, I do not know.

And for Scandinavia- it should be separated from Germania Magnia (or whatever it is called).

 

[Tabris01]

Just joining in on the thread but I've been following for a little while very interested in the premise I do think that the Germania situation and it's kingdoms/empires should be based on the tribes in the region and how long they had inhabited. In the case of Germania the empire itself it should only be Germania Magna if ruled by a Roman/Roman derived nation while Germania should be for a normal ethnic german. The title Germania Magna represented those territories outside Roman control so a German desiring to only claim imperial territory in those regions would be folly.

Certain Roman provinces like Rhaetia(Or Raetia the classical terms used the former more commonly) shouldn't exist because the Alamanni had been in control of the region for some generations meaning they should actually be the de jure rulers. The Saxons should also be a de jure kingdom in the region of what is now Hannover but old Saxony since they had inhabited and ruled the region for generations. Certain provinces along the Germania border should be as of the present moment a de jure German state but in the event of a Roman reconquest the old provinces of Rhaetia, Noricum, Germania Inferior, and Germania Superior should return as de jure.

Also I'm unsure if you've changed the situation in North Africa but I would reduce the amount of Donatism in the region. It should still exist since the records of them end with the Muslim conquest but efforts on behalf of St. Augustine and the Empire had reduced their power and influence.

The Roman culture in Italy should also be increased as it is rather small.

I hope that I can help with stuff in the future! Thanks for the great idea!

Why not use smth like old saxon "Thiusdiskland"? Not quite the right era, but better than nothing.

 

[ekorovin]

Wouldn't it be weird to call the Kingdom Greater Germania while calling the Empire Germania? Logically the names should be the other way around. Germania Slavica is a bit anachronistic because Slavic migration across the Vistula was only beginning in the 5th century. While it should be likely it's by no means certain the area will be populated by Slavs. Germania transalbis might be a more neutral name.

I disagree with Slavic migration across Vistula in 5th century, I've shown this map earlier:

Przeworsk culture is 2 century BC - 4 century AD. It clears spans both banks of Vistula.

 

[Joemit]

So Enlil, what provinces are you going to have? I can't really write up a legion system without knowing whether a province will be used or not.

 

[Qantrix]

I disagree with Slavic migration across Vistula in 5th century, I've shown this map earlier:

Przeworsk culture is 2 century BC - 4 century AD. It clears spans both banks of Vistula.

Despite the name it is by no means certain that the Przeworsk culture was Slavic. Our only record of them is archeologic. Traditionally they are associated with Vandals, though I don't think they were entirely Germanic either I think they had a Baltic and Sarmatian component. What we do know is that there are large differences in archeologic records with the later Slavic tribes in the area.

I've been accompaning this thread for some time, but unfortunately had nothing to add... Until now.

I see defining the de jure setup has generated a lot of different opinions and I'd like to propose a solution. Considering the many different groups that inhabited most regions during this period, it might be a good idea to use a system similar to that present in the Winter King mod, in which, by controlling certain provinces (the CK2 kind, not the roman one) and creating a title, you trigger an event that changes the de jure setup. While this might be somewhat complex it probably would be one of the best ways to portrait the rise and fall of kindoms during the migration period.

Please feel free to say what you think abou this idea, and if there's any interest I might volunteer to try and implement this.

This is a pretty good call. It would tie in pretty well with the migration dynamic and IIRC anyone has permission to take stuff from Winter King anyway.

 

[ekorovin]

Despite the name it is by no means certain that the Przeworsk culture was Slavic. Our only record of them is archeologic. Traditionally they are associated with Vandals, though I don't think they were entirely Germanic either I think they had a Baltic and Sarmatian component. What we do know is that there are large differences in archeologic records with the later Slavic tribes in the area.

The name is modern of course, no need to be condescending. Anyhow, I may be biased, since I'm a Slav myself, but association of Przeworsk with Vandals looks rather Drang nach Osten-esque to me. And no-one, to my knowledge, ever doubted, that Prague-Korchak is a Slavic culture, and they appeared around the start date, a bit later of course.That's however totally true, that 5th century history of Slavs belong to the archaeology and anthropology mostly.

 

[Erik W]

Wouldn't it be weird to call the Kingdom Greater Germania while calling the Empire Germania? Logically the names should be the other way around. Germania Slavica is a bit anachronistic because Slavic migration across the Vistula was only beginning in the 5th century. While it should be likely it's by no means certain the area will be populated by Slavs. Germania transalbis might be a more neutral name.

It looks like we have found another dejure kingdom we can use, Germania Transalbis can be between the Elbe and the Oder while we put Germania Slavica between the Oder and the Vistula

Why not call "Germania magna" "Germania libera", and the empire "Germania magna"?

No, the Romans called their province beyond the Rhine Germania Magna and I think we should stick to the Empire being called Germania

If you're going to call the area between the Elbe and Vistula "Germania Transalbis", then calling the area between the Elbe and Rhine "Germania Cisalbis" makes sense

No, I think Germania Magna makes more sense since thats what the Romans called their province there

Just joining in on the thread but I've been following for a little while very interested in the premise I do think that the Germania situation and it's kingdoms/empires should be based on the tribes in the region and how long they had inhabited. In the case of Germania the empire itself it should only be Germania Magna if ruled by a Roman/Roman derived nation while Germania should be for a normal ethnic german. The title Germania Magna represented those territories outside Roman control so a German desiring to only claim imperial territory in those regions would be folly.

Certain Roman provinces like Rhaetia(Or Raetia the classical terms used the former more commonly) shouldn't exist because the Alamanni had been in control of the region for some generations meaning they should actually be the de jure rulers. The Saxons should also be a de jure kingdom in the region of what is now Hannover but old Saxony since they had inhabited and ruled the region for generations. Certain provinces along the Germania border should be as of the present moment a de jure German state but in the event of a Roman reconquest the old provinces of Rhaetia, Noricum, Germania Inferior, and Germania Superior should return as de jure.

Remember these are tribes we are talking about. What if they suddenly decide to move somewhere else? And you still have a dejure homeland kingdom? But if we have to split Germania like that, I think that your solution, reinstating the old provinces as dejure is a good one

I see defining the de jure setup has generated a lot of different opinions and I'd like to propose a solution. Considering the many different groups that inhabited most regions during this period, it might be a good idea to use a system similar to that present in the Winter King mod, in which, by controlling certain provinces (the CK2 kind, not the roman one) and creating a title, you trigger an event that changes the de jure setup. While this might be somewhat complex it probably would be one of the best ways to portrait the rise and fall of kindoms during the migration period.

Please feel free to say what you think abou this idea, and if there's any interest I might volunteer to try and implement this.

It would have to work for the Romans as well, perhaps if they occupy one CK2 province of a former province, they should have the option to reinstate their province as dejure. Tricky, but I think it would be a good solution if we do split dejure Germania between the tripes and not Roman-inspired provinces, WHICH I STILL PREFER BY THE WAY.

 

[Qantrix]

I think certain titles like Frisia and Saxonia would be called as such under Roman rule as well, like the land of the Belgii became Belgica. In other cases we could perhaps use culture or dynasty specific titles. In other cases I think the Latin namens for rivers, mountains and cities function pretty well.

 

[Enlil]

Enlil has the final call I suppose, I'm curious what he thinks about all of this. Splitting up Maxima Sequanorum I don't feel too strongly about personally I'm all for maintaining it as a single duchy (seems pretty historical) although you could move it to a different Kingdom. I'm more concerned with the balance between Kingdoms.

I'll keep it a duchy.

 

[Enlil]

And with Belgica and Superior and Inferior, I'm going to make Superior its own kingdom, and Belgica a kingdom with a duchy of Inferior.

 

[Enlil]

And I might make events like they had with The Winter Kings mod, where there was a changing dejure scheme.

 

[alxeu]

And I might make events like they had with The Winter Kings mod, where there was a changing dejure scheme.

This was among my favorite parts of Winter King, and would be the best solution for a mod moving into the base game.