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darthfanta

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We could make restoring legions very expensive
So, my understanding is that these 'restored legions' are similar to mercenary groups like the Varangian Guard and the Mameluks. Can they be destroyed?
 

YouMust99

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Well I have had it so that the sizes of the legions decrease over time, so that eventually the theme system is the only way. The size of the legions in the first place can be as low as you want. If you want the Romans to have 1000 man legions, you can have that. There are originally only sixteen legions for the East and roughly 25 recoverable legions. Most of these are for the West and a few are for places like Armenia or Mesopotamia.
I don't believe the theme system was inevitable. If ERE keeps hold of Egypt I don't think it would have happened
 

richie05

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^^^ but what if losing egypt was inevitable. Roman empire of this period gets far too much credit on these forums.
 

JGBeagle

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^^^ but what if losing egypt was inevitable. Roman empire of this period gets far too much credit on these forums.
In my opinion this mod should be focusing on historical events first because that lays the groundwork for alternate events. If losing Egypt is the basis for the creation of the Theme System then that should be the criteria for installing the Theme System ingame. Once that's done we can come up for alternate ways to have the Theme System established or what happens if Egypt isn't lost.

EDIT: Also, it's looking like Dál Riata was established sometime after 500 AD so it wouldn't exist at the start of the game. I'm trying to figure out some way to make the British Isles interesting; maybe some decisions to form some of the different British kingdoms of the time? It seems like a lot of interesting things happened up there.
 

darthfanta

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^^^ but what if losing egypt was inevitable. Roman empire of this period gets far too much credit on these forums.
The Roman Empire losing Egypt was as likely as the US losing control of Texas. It just wasn't that foreseeable. It wasn't foreseeable at all that a Roman army would lose to an army it outnumbered 3-5 times and get completely destroyed.
 

loup99

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I have an idea for a decision:

If the Catholic-Orthodox schism has happened and a catholic emperor/king exists you could add a decision to give the pope the duchy of Latium (or the county of Rome). This would fit in the way it happened historically with the Emperor Pepin (father of Charlemagne) and the pope. The result could be that either/and the pope becomes the vassal of that emperor or gain an opinion bonus and you gain a lot of piety and prestige.
What do you think about this Enlil?

In my opinion this mod should be focusing on historical events first because that lays the groundwork for alternate events. If losing Egypt is the basis for the creation of the Theme System then that should be the criteria for installing the Theme System ingame. Once that's done we can come up for alternate ways to have the Theme System established or what happens if Egypt isn't lost.
For some ideas to how to model themes there is this mod made by Athalcor.
 

loup99

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Depends on whether the ERE or the resurrected WRE is able to hold onto Rome. I don't think any of them would willingly hand the city over to the pope.
No, I meant more a barbarian emperor that has converted to catoliscism. The resurrected WRE or ERE would probably also not be very likely to make a schism.
 

darthfanta

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No, I meant more a barbarian emperor that has converted to catoliscism. The resurrected WRE or ERE would probably also not be very likely to make a schism.
Also depends on whether the two empires were able to unite.I would assume the West Roman Emperor will try to back the Pope who claims universal jurisdiction while the East Roman Emperor would back the other three Patriarchs under his rule .
 
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loup99

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Also depends on whether the two empires were able to unite.I would assume the West Roman Emperor will try to back the Pope who claims universal jurisdiction while the East Roman Emperor would back the other three Patriarchs under his rule .
Yes but a later goal for a WRE would be to (if no schism has happened) also take over the remnants of the patriarchs.
 

loup99

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That would involve taking the ERE by force.
Yes of course (except for maybe Egypt if it is independant). Is there any decision to unite the two Empires if the WRE is restored?
 

darthfanta

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Yes of course (except for maybe Egypt if it is independant). Is there any decision to unite the two Empires if the WRE is restored?
Can't see how that can be done if WRE is restored except through inheritance or by military means.
 

Erik W

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In my opinion this mod should be focusing on historical events first because that lays the groundwork for alternate events. If losing Egypt is the basis for the creation of the Theme System then that should be the criteria for installing the Theme System ingame. Once that's done we can come up for alternate ways to have the Theme System established or what happens if Egypt isn't lost.
In my opinion, losing Egypt AND THE LEVANT or just about any major drop in Byzantine Power would lead to the establishment of the Themes. But any major increase in Byzantine Power should then lead to the restoration of the legions. Like if they lose their position as a major power (like 10-15 and below), the Themes should be automatically instated. Imagine if the Byzantines lost Europe and Constantinople to the Ostrogoths, then the Themes should appear after a decade or two (if power is not regained)
 

loup99

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Can't see how that can be done if WRE is restored except through inheritance or by military means.
Yes, that would of course involve that. But I mean more as a flavour thing if you control both empires (or Rome and Constantinople).

In my opinion, losing Egypt AND THE LEVANT or just about any major drop in Byzantine Power would lead to the establishment of the Themes. But any major increase in Byzantine Power should then lead to the restoration of the legions. Like if they lose their position as a major power (like 10-15 and below), the Themes should be automatically instated. Imagine if the Byzantines lost Europe and Constantinople to the Ostrogoths, then the Themes should appear after a decade or two (if power is not regained)
This is a good soluition as it is both dynamic and similar to history. It would also leave many alternate possibilties open. Another suggestion is that if they are below 100 (or someyhing) in realm size the themes could be created. And for the opposite maybe 300 for the legions to be restored (this is just aproximative as I do not know how big they are at start in terms of realm size).
 
Last edited:

Erik W

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This is a good soluition as it is both dynamic and similar to history. It would also leave many alternate possibilties open. Another suggestion is that if they are below 100 (or someyhing) in realm size the themes could be created. And for the opposite maybe 300 for the legions to be restored (this is just aproximative as I do not know how big they are at start in terms of realm size).
This got me thinking, shouldn´t there be a decision that allows you to reform your realm in general? Examples of this would be to restore Diocletian´s Tetrarchy, redesign your provinces and districts (dejure kingdoms and duchies) and naming foederatis (that would be allies without family ties, is that possible in CK2?)

Edit: Province Redesign Example:

Germania splits into Inferior and Superior

Raetia-Noricum splits into Raetia and Noricum

Moesia is absorbed into Thrace

Baetica merges with Carthaginesnsis
 
Last edited:

Joemit

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OK, so here's my idea for the Legions. They are mercenary companies like the Varangian Guard. I made them mercenary companies because you can't really do the the "conquer province, get legion" thing with retinues. Every major province gets a legion or a few (Italia might get around three). Each of these legions is about 1000 troops. Altogether there will be about 30-40 legions in the restored empire. There will be sixteen in the starting Byzantine Empire. If you capture a province you will get a decision available "Restore the Legions of X(say, Italia or Aegyptus)". This decision will cost something like 1500 gold. When the empire loses a province, they lose the legion. Also, it's going to be costing the treasury about four gold each. Unless you have a pretty high tax rate, you won't be able to afford to keep all the legions running. The high tax rate contributes to the instability of the empire. Adding to this the fact that the legion sizes decrease over the years, the empire is weaker than if they just had levies. And finally, feudal levies will be turned off.
 

Erik W

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OK, so here's my idea for the Legions. They are mercenary companies like the Varangian Guard. I made them mercenary companies because you can't really do the the "conquer province, get legion" thing with retinues. Every major province gets a legion or a few (Italia might get around three). Each of these legions is about 1000 troops. Altogether there will be about 30-40 legions in the restored empire. There will be sixteen in the starting Byzantine Empire. If you capture a province you will get a decision available "Restore the Legions of X(say, Italia or Aegyptus)". This decision will cost something like 1500 gold. When the empire loses a province, they lose the legion. Also, it's going to be costing the treasury about four gold each. Unless you have a pretty high tax rate, you won't be able to afford to keep all the legions running. The high tax rate contributes to the instability of the empire. Adding to this the fact that the legion sizes decrease over the years, the empire is weaker than if they just had levies. And finally, feudal levies will be turned off.
First, why should they decrease over the years? If you can´t afford them, then just don´t have as many standing as you used to have and rely more on your levies for defense. Also, what is the minimum number? Is there one? Do they continue to decrease in number no matter what you do? Will they just disappear after a time? In that case, then what´s the point of having them?

Second, I think we should add a decision that expands the legions. Example:

Zeno conquers Africa, add 1000 men to the legions

Justinian retakes the "Italian Region" (Italy, Pannonia, Raetia-Noricum and Dalmatia), add another 1000

Some Emperor gains Hispania back, another 1000

Seems reasonable to me?
 

darthfanta

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OK, so here's my idea for the Legions. They are mercenary companies like the Varangian Guard. I made them mercenary companies because you can't really do the the "conquer province, get legion" thing with retinues. Every major province gets a legion or a few (Italia might get around three). Each of these legions is about 1000 troops. Altogether there will be about 30-40 legions in the restored empire. There will be sixteen in the starting Byzantine Empire. If you capture a province you will get a decision available "Restore the Legions of X(say, Italia or Aegyptus)". This decision will cost something like 1500 gold. When the empire loses a province, they lose the legion. Also, it's going to be costing the treasury about four gold each. Unless you have a pretty high tax rate, you won't be able to afford to keep all the legions running. The high tax rate contributes to the instability of the empire. Adding to this the fact that the legion sizes decrease over the years, the empire is weaker than if they just had levies. And finally, feudal levies will be turned off.
Sounds nice. If they empire bankrupts, the legions should just proclaim someone as the new emperor.At any rate, I don't understand the legion sizes decrease over the years thing though.WHY?
 

Qantrix

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To get an idea of what the legions of the Late Roman Empire were like you might want to take a look at the Notitia Dignitas. Probably there would have to be some simplification. The shields included might also serve as inspiration for the shields of the mercenary companies.
 
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