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Enlil

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Joemit

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OK, so here are my ideas for provinces with recoverable legions.
Recoverable Legions:
Pannonia
Dalmatia
Cyrene
Africa
Noricum
Raetia
Italia
Sicilia
Corsica?
Sardinia?
Tarraconesis
Alpes?
Lusitiana
Baetica
Mauretania Tingitana
Mauretania Caesariensis
Dacia
Armenia
Mesopotamia
Narbonensis
Aquitania
Lugdunensis
Belgica
Germania Superior
Germania Inferior
Britannia
Are there any of those you aren't making, because if not there won't be any point making them.
 

GothicEmperor

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Weren't the Burgundians more closely related to the Goths culturally/linguisticly? I'd put them in the same category as those, frankly.
 

Enlil

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OK, so here are my ideas for provinces with recoverable legions.
Recoverable Legions:
Pannonia
Dalmatia
Cyrene
Africa
Noricum
Raetia
Italia
Sicilia
Corsica?
Sardinia?
Tarraconesis
Alpes?
Lusitiana
Baetica
Mauretania Tingitana
Mauretania Caesariensis
Dacia
Armenia
Mesopotamia
Narbonensis
Aquitania
Lugdunensis
Belgica
Germania Superior
Germania Inferior
Britannia
Are there any of those you aren't making, because if not there won't be any point making them.
I'll give a better look at this later, but Noricum-Reatia are combined as a kingdom.
 

Erik W

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OK, so here are my ideas for provinces with recoverable legions.
This got me thinking:

If you play as the Romans and take control of a new kingdom(say Hibernia or Germania Slavica), shouldn´t they automatically recieve another legion? For every new province (dejure kingdom), another legion?
 

darthfanta

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OK, so here are my ideas for provinces with recoverable legions.
Recoverable Legions:
Pannonia
Dalmatia
Cyrene
Africa
Noricum
Raetia
Italia
Sicilia
Corsica?
Sardinia?
Tarraconesis
Alpes?
Lusitiana
Baetica
Mauretania Tingitana
Mauretania Caesariensis
Dacia
Armenia
Mesopotamia
Narbonensis
Aquitania
Lugdunensis
Belgica
Germania Superior
Germania Inferior
Britannia
Are there any of those you aren't making, because if not there won't be any point making them.
So what are these legions? I mean, are they supposed to be some mercenary force that's supposed to represent Roman legions?Alternatively, shouldn't legions be represented as retinues? If so, I think it would be best if retinues are set as 1,000 units. That should represent the legions of the late empire.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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So what are these legions? I mean, are they supposed to be some mercenary force that's supposed to represent Roman legions?Alternatively, shouldn't legions be represented as retinues? If so, I think it would be best if retinues are set as 1,000 units. That should represent the legions of the late empire.
I agree, the Legions were nearly dead and buried at this time frame yet they seem to be a rather large focus. The fall of the Western Roman Empire saw the end of professional standing armies for nearly a thousand years and the switch to the feudal model.
 

ekorovin

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I agree, the Legions were nearly dead and buried at this time frame yet they seem to be a rather large focus. The fall of the Western Roman Empire saw the end of professional standing armies for nearly a thousand years and the switch to the feudal model.
Would there be anyone alive who've seen western legions? There weren't any in Cataluanian plains, 30 years earlier.
 

darthfanta

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Would there be anyone alive who've seen western legions? There weren't any in Cataluanian plains, 30 years earlier.
Weren't there? I thought there were, although many of these 'legions' were staffed by barbarian foederates.Seeing how legions at this time number around 1,000 men each, I would assume it is reasonable that there would have been some 'purely Roman' legions at this time.

It must be further noted though that many of the seemingly militia units of this period were in fact 'legions'. The Limitanei are themselves legion units that overtime became little more than militia troops/levies. What actually disappeared were the Comitatenses. I think it would have been better if the more professional troops were to be replicated by retinues rather than mercenary units similar to how the Varangian guard and the Mameluks are in the Vanilla. It's ridiculous to see either of the Roman Empires(especially the west) being able to mobilize large standing field armies even if the empire somehow recovered.There just isn't enough money or manpower to properly staff the legions as it was. By the fifth century, the west underwent severe depopulation.

I suggest the Romans should have the following retinues:Comitatenses and Cataphracts.
 
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ekorovin

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Weren't there? I thought there were, although many of these 'legions' were staffed by barbarian foederates.Seeing how legions at this time number around 1,000 men each, I would assume it is reasonable that there would have been some 'purely Roman' legions at this time.
From Wiki: According to Sidonius Apollinaris, he was leading forth a force consisting of few and sparse auxiliaries without one regular soldier.[14]
I know that by the time of Julian legions was called by the names of the tribes they consisted of. And that's 150 years ago, and things were going downhill very fast from there.
 

Erik W

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So what are these legions? I mean, are they supposed to be some mercenary force that's supposed to represent Roman legions?Alternatively, shouldn't legions be represented as retinues? If so, I think it would be best if retinues are set as 1,000 units. That should represent the legions of the late empire.
Only 1000? That´s way too few! What is wrong with having 4500? 1000 men is just too small of a force to be called legion. Between 3000-5000, that is the perfect number
 
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ekorovin

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Only 1000? That´s way too few! What is wrong with having 4500? 1000 men is just too small of a force to be called legion. Between 3000-5000, that is the perfect number
Well, that's post Tetrarchy legion for you. They call it decline and fall for a reason.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Only 1000? That´s way too few! What is wrong with having 4500? 1000 men is just too small of a force to be called legion. Between 3000-5000, that is the perfect number
Well, that's post Tetrarchy legion for you. They call it decline and fall for a reason.
Plus by the end, even the relatively wealthy East could no longer afford large standing armies. After the failures in Syria and Egypt you see some attempts to reform: the themes.
 

darthfanta

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Well, that's post Tetrarchy legion for you. They call it decline and fall for a reason.
Actually, there's a good reason why the later legions were 1,000 men units. 1,000 men legions are more flexible than 5,000 men legions. During the 3rd century, legions often had to be split into temporary 1000 men vexillatio formations in response to crisis or emergencies. Most of the time, these 1000 men formations were permanently separated from their parental units and mixed up with the vexillatio of other legions, which led to the decline in esprit de corps of the legions. By making these 1,000 men units their own legions, each of these 1,000 men unit would maintain their own esprit de corps that wouldn't be diluted.I would also assume there would be less confusion in the chain of command as well.
 
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ekorovin

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Actually, there's a good reason why the later legions were 1,000 men units. 1,000 men legions are more flexible than 5,000 men legions. During the 3rd century, legions often had to be split into temporary 1000 men vexillatio formations in response to crisis or emergencies. Most of the time, these 1000 men formations were permanently separated from their parental units and mixed up with the vexillatio of other legions, which led to the decline in esprit de corps of the legions. By making these 1,000 men units their own legions, each of these 1,000 men unit would maintain their own esprit de corps that wouldn't be diluted.
I think here's the number of factors involved. Mobility's one. Financial catastrophe's the other, political concern, that commander of large unified force would just proclaim himself an Emperor, is the third. And there's many more, probably.
 

darthfanta

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I think here's the number of factors involved. Mobility's one. Financial catastrophe's the other, political concern, that commander of large unified force would just proclaim himself an Emperor, is the third. And there's many more, probably.
I don't think that's an important reason though. Commanders of 5,000 men legions have too few troops to rebel with. The commanders that proclaim themselves Emperor usually had command over several five-thousand men legions.After the transformation of legions to 1,000 men unit, many commanders still retained the command of large unified formations, it's just that these formations now consists of many of 1,000 men legions as opposed to several 5,000 men legions, and the number of troops they command also remained the same depending on which frontier force they command. The only major attempt to stop usurpation was to separate provincial governorship from military command, which to some extent deprived commanders of some resources.
 
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Erik W

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Plus by the end, even the relatively wealthy East could no longer afford large standing armies. After the failures in Syria and Egypt you see some attempts to reform: the themes.
Actually, there's a good reason why the later legions were 1,000 men units. 1,000 men legions are more flexible than 5,000 men legions. During the 3rd century, legions often had to be split into temporary 1000 men vexillatio formations in response to crisis or emergencies. Most of the time, these 1000 men formations were permanently separated from their parental units and mixed up with the vexillatio of other legions, which led to the decline in esprit de corps of the legions. By making these 1,000 men units their own legions, each of these 1,000 men unit would maintain their own esprit de corps that wouldn't be diluted.I would also assume there would be less confusion in the chain of command as well.
I think here's the number of factors involved. Mobility's one. Financial catastrophe's the other, political concern, that commander of large unified force would just proclaim himself an Emperor, is the third. And there's many more, probably.
Fine I get the point...

Hey wait, I just came up with something here. Example:

Emperor Justinian blazes across the western Mediterranean, beating ass wherever he goes. He restores Italy, Pannonia,Africa and Hispania and declares the return of the Roman Empire.

Option 1: He goes after the Franks

Option 2: He now spends his energy on consolidating his conquests, fortifying his borders and reorganizing the Empire. Hordes of recruits pour into the army in the glory of the new Empire. Properly trained and diciplined, the legions swell in size, as do the population.

What I mean to say is, if you restore the Grand Empire, the legions should grow as your power increases.
 

ekorovin

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I don't think that's an important reason though. Commanders of 5,000 men legions have too few troops to rebel with. In addition, the commanders that usually proclaim themselves Emperor usually had command of several five-thousand men legions.After the transformation of legions to 1,000 men unit, many commanders still retained the command of large unified formations, it's just that these formations now consists of many of 1,000 men legions as opposed to a several 5,000 men legions, and then number of troops they command also remained the same depending on which frontier force they command. The only major attempt to stop usurpation was to separate provincial governorship from military command, which to some extent deprived commanders of some resources.
Not that I disagree with you, but I would point that if earlier to rebel would usually mean to go seize Rome, subjugate the Empire and rule in all its entirety, near the end of Empire rebels usually just tried to carve out a nice little empire for themselves. Which makes sense, considering that this military leaders weren't just Roman officers, but also a kings of their tribe. And that tribe constituted the majority, if not entirety, of their force.

Emperor Justinian blazes across the western Mediterranean, beating ass wherever he goes. He restores Italy, Pannonia,Africa and Hispania and declares the return of the Roman Empire.

Option 1: He goes after the Franks

Option 2: He now spends his energy on consolidating his conquests, fortifying his borders and reorganizing the Empire. Hordes of recruits pour into the army in the glory of the new Empire. Properly trained and diciplined, the legions swell in size, as do the population.

What I mean to say is, if you restore the Grand Empire, the legions should grow as your power increases.
There's two counterpoints to be made. First, it didn't happen in the regions, subjugated by Justinian's commanders. Second, Justian wouldn't ever do that, the man was paranoid enough already, to give Belisaurius even more power, unthinkable.
 
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