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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
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Enlil

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Currently in the test playthrough the richest faction in game are the Zoroastrian Immortals, under their leader:
Grandmaster Atamaita "the Cruel", son of the Hepthalite Emperor.
Culture: Bactrian
Religion: Zoroastrian
Cash: 4239.8
Prestige: 922.8
Piety: 446.8
Score:18163.5
 

Zusk

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Hey Enlil, I made ten events for your mod

Some of the inclusions include

- Chance for Nicene christian courtiers to convert back to Gaulish, Illyrian and Hellenic religions while under pagan or Arian lords
- A Roman Nostalgia trait for those that miss the fallen Roman state
- Find a Roman Aqueduct!

Here you go. https://mega.co.nz/#!TRgglTKL!SPYgvohZoqfKB_OluY2Abq5x8wLtmyxmsMOPirU9S5A
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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@Mr. Capiatlist
Why is the Germanic influence needed anyways? Do you think that French people would behave totally different if it weren't for the invading Barbarians? Vulgar Roman dialects started to drift apart even when the Western Roman Empire was still a functioning thing.
I am not suggesting Germaic influence is what drive them apart, but instead I am suggesting it as a trigger to either form the "melting pot" modern culture or the non-hyphenated culture. Unless you want to suggest at some point that Gaulo-Romance always shifts to French regardless. I am willing to accept that as a simplification as well. My point was events like this should have a trigger, but it doesn't make sense for Slavic to create French. Perhaps there can be some eastern examples, we are being very western specific.

People's names matter greatly. They show signs that the population of Hispania had accepted the goths and parts of the Gothic culture. It shows signs that the popualtion was assimulating. The Islamic conquest cut it short. Have a look at the link below, specifically the last chapter Gothia and Hispania.

ftp://istorichka.ru/upload/Goths/Visigothic%20Spain%20409%20-%20711%20(A%20History%20of%20Spain).pdf
Names do not a culture make.
 

JonStryker

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People's names matter greatly. They show signs that the population of Hispania had accepted the goths and parts of the Gothic culture. It shows signs that the popualtion was assimulating. The Islamic conquest cut it short. Have a look at the link below, specifically the last chapter Gothia and Hispania.

ftp://istorichka.ru/upload/Goths/Visigothic%20Spain%20409%20-%20711%20(A%20History%20of%20Spain).pdf
An interesting read (yes I did read parts of it :) ). But what I meant is this: Even if someone got a Germanic name because of tradition and the likes it doesn't mean that he hasn't already pretty much given up his Germanic culture. All those Lombards in Italy were clearly not very Germanic anymore in the 11th century but they still used those names. Tradition and Preference. Even today names with Germanic roots are still in use like Louis which originated from Hlūdwīg. Doesn't mean that this means much, though. The Franks still assimilated into the local Roman population.

I am somewhat of a German nationalist while being Austrian and I would love to see great influence of Germanic peoples on culture of the Romance nations but I can't.
 

Enlil

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Hey Enlil, I made ten events for your mod

Some of the inclusions include

- Chance for Nicene christian courtiers to convert back to Gaulish, Illyrian and Hellenic religions while under pagan or Arian lords
- A Roman Nostalgia trait for those that miss the fallen Roman state
- Find a Roman Aqueduct!

Here you go. https://mega.co.nz/#!TRgglTKL!SPYgvohZoqfKB_OluY2Abq5x8wLtmyxmsMOPirU9S5A
You sir are a saint! I am so happy, I present you title of Rex of Soissons for your efforts! Also, you will get this mod a week before anyone else for beta testing!
 

Enlil

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tsf4

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Gosh I hope it isn't a week away! My semester ends on the 22nd, and it would be great to have the beta out before I have to cram... :(
 

Bj0rn

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Now I understand more fully what you said. I didn't mean to talk "for" you or anything like that, mate. Just spoke what I understood. Your caps makes me think I offended you in some way by it, but it's hard to know someone's tone of voice just by text, so in any regards just in case: I'm sorry if I did offend you, that was never my intention and thank you for explaining your idea :)

I agree with what you said, it seems like a perfectly acceptable compromise between ultra-hardcore-chucknorristic-realism and the reality of this being a game. One thing I think is important that you mentioned breafly is the idea of a roman king that has his capital in roman-cultured land would remain roman. Yes, maybe become modern roman after a while, but generally remain the same roman. That would be epic and a good incentive to reconquor Rome :)
 

Joemit

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OK, so I've been doing the legions, but there's a bit of a problem. The late empire's legion names often have nothing to do with where they came from. If we are using the "conquer Italia, get Legio I Italica" it seems a bit weird when you invade using Legio IV Italica. Instead, I will change the names to where they come from, so that you actually get Gaulish legions when you conquer Gaul and you actually get an Illyrian legion when you conquer Illyria. It isn't as historically accurate but it means you get legions that make sense, and you can tell what is happening by them, instead of just meaningless names. Enlil, what do you think?
 

Zusk

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You sir are a saint! I am so happy, I present you title of Rex of Soissons for your efforts! Also, you will get this mod a week before anyone else for beta testing!
Oh my goodness, thank you so much!

That's really nice of you, I really love this mod concept.
 

loup99

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I think you should divide dejure Gaul's kingdoms like following :

- An armorican kingdom, divided into three titular kingdoms : Bro-Ereg, Dumnonia and Kernev.
- Gaulish Visigothica should divided in dejure : Aquitanica, Narbonensis (the mediterranean coast), and a visigoth homeland in Toulouse/Tolosa.
- Soissons is a problem. Pre-Frankish northern France is badly documented, si it is hard to tell what is recognized by who. If Syagrius call himslef Dux, it seems that Emperor Anthemius gave him the title of patrician. Eventually, he his named "king of the romans" by his neighbors. Now, should Soissons be renamed "roman kingdom" to fit most other rulers thought ? I think you should make of Soissons a titular title, with roman provinces as dejure kingdoms. Syagrius could later create a unique roman title in Gaul if he defeats his opponents.
Soissons could be titular with an Empire of Gaul to create. For the dejure kingdoms I do not know. Should they be taken from the Roman era or from the mods timeframe (as they are in the vanilla game).

The problem is that if Clovis conquers the area, at his death the titles will be dissolved. For the Franks the dejure situation does not matter in this area. At the death of a Frankish leaders his heirs should end up (as said before) with equal amounts of lands and fight for it all a decision to reunite the Franks (or assasinate eachother sa they historically did). By the way is it possible to make it so that the heirs are more likely to assainate eachother and maybe they do not need any kinslayer trait?

Also all of this cultural stuff gave me a bit of a question. For example if the Franks settle in Germany instead of France then germans should be called french today and the french something complettly else. Therefor a melting pot such as Mr. Capiatlist suggested is probably the best solution in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

Zusk

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Soissons could be titular with an Empire of Gaul to create. For the dejure kingdoms I do not know. Should they be taken from the Roman era or from the mods timeframe (as they are in the vanilla game).

The problem is that if Clovis conquers the area, at his death the titles will be dissolved. For the Franks the dejure situation does not matter in this area. At the death of a Frankish leaders his heirs should end up (as said before) with equal amounts of lands and fight for it all a decision to reunite the Franks (or assasinate eachother sa they historically did). By the way is it possible to make it so that the heirs are more likely to assainate eachother and maybe they do not need any kinslayer trait?

Also all of this cultural stuff gave me a bit of a question. For example if the Franks settle in Germany instead of France then germans should be called french today and the french something complettly else. Therefor a melting pot such as Mr. Capiatlist suggested is probably the best solution in my opinion.
"French" culture is a fusion of Frankish and Romance culture, if the Franks conquered German territory then it wouldn't really be "France", I think having the Franks be able to make a "Francia" empire title if they own enough counties works well enough. That way they are not hurt if they decide to expand outside of their historical conquests and for example try to invade Brittania
 

loup99

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"French" culture is a fusion of Frankish and Romance culture, if the Franks conquered German territory then it wouldn't really be "France", I think having the Franks be able to make a "Francia" empire title if they own enough counties works well enough. That way they are not hurt if they decide to expand outside of their historical conquests and for example try to invade Brittania
I know it is a fusion of these cultures, what I meant was more for the name of the area and the language, not how it was spoken or how people lived. For the empire title you mean a cultural Empire like CK2+ has?
 

Zusk

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I know it is a fusion of these cultures, what I meant was more for the name of the area and the language, not how it was spoken. For the empire title you mean a cultural Empire like CK2+ has?
Cultural empire? I think I recall that a bit. I never played CK2+ that much.

It could be handled either through a special decision and be a titualar empire made only by Frankish cultures or it could be handled as a cultural name for the "Gaulish Empire" kind of like how if a Avar character takes control of Hungary it becomes "Avar Khaganate"
 

Erik W

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That would imply that the Suebians and Visigoths had a significant influence on any of those cultures. But do they? To me it more seems as if those peoples were absorbed into the local populations without much of a trace. Neither the Germanic tribes nor the Arab invaders afterwards left any significant influence on the Hispanic languages.

The more accurate solution would be to either make all Romance regions "Roman" at start and split it up by de jure kingdoms lateron. Or (even easier) put the resulting cultures on the map from the get go -> Galician-Portuguese, Castilian, Catalan, Occitan, French, etc.
Events could coerce the Germanic ruling class to "blend in" and adopt the "Roman" way of life (i.e. convert them to the local variant of Roman).
They might not have had a huge impact in the real world, but I think we should make that atleast possible. I mean, a player could choose either to Barbarianize Hispania with strong Visigoths or Suebians, Romanize them further then they were in the real world ,Romanize them enough to become Spanish and Portuguese or just leave their respective cultures alone.

Putting modern cultures at start? That is just wrong!
 

loup99

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Cultural empire? I think I recall that a bit. I never played CK2+ that much.

It could be handled either through a special decision and be a titualar empire made only by Frankish cultures or it could be handled as a cultural name for the "Gaulish Empire" kind of like how if a Avar character takes control of Hungary it becomes "Avar Khaganate"
The first one is the one similar to CK2+ and is probably the best since the second one would tie the empire to Gaul and also have the same COA.

Putting modern cultures at start? That is just wrong!
Would not be a good idea for this mod that tries to as dynamic as possible.
 

Zusk

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The first one is the one similar to CK2+ and is probably the best since the second one would tie the empire to Gaul and also have the same COA.
Yeah, that's probably the best way to handle it.
 

Erik W

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OK, so I've been doing the legions, but there's a bit of a problem. The late empire's legion names often have nothing to do with where they came from. If we are using the "conquer Italia, get Legio I Italica" it seems a bit weird when you invade using Legio IV Italica. Instead, I will change the names to where they come from, so that you actually get Gaulish legions when you conquer Gaul and you actually get an Illyrian legion when you conquer Illyria. It isn't as historically accurate but it means you get legions that make sense, and you can tell what is happening by them, instead of just meaningless names. Enlil, what do you think?
Why do they have to make sense? How is that historically important? Why not just keep the names and you get them when you conquer the region they are stationed in?
 

Erik W

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While I support the idea of making more meltingpot-cultures, I think its kinda unfair if we don´t do it the other way around as well. This is an historical mod I know but I think there should be a very large possibility for it to go unhistorical as well. That is why we need A LOT of new hybrid cultures. Example:

Option 1:
Byzantine Emperor Zeno suddenly decides to invade Persia for no reason.

Unlike many failed Roman attempts, Zeno actually manages to conquer Persia and then successfully hold it

Possibility 1:
He decides to Romanize/Hellenize the Persians, making them Graeco-Persians/Romano-Persians and then finally Romans after a while.

(Consequense: Zoroastrian banished to the steppes, Nicene catapulting east to India and beyond. Official Roman contact with Hepthalites, India and China(by sea ambassadors))

Possibility 2:
Zeno instead desides to become Persian Christian

Possibility 3:
Zeno becomes Romano-Greek Zoroastrian

Possibility 4:
Zeno becomes Persian Zoroastrian

Option 2:
Persian King Peroz I conquers the ERE for no reason

Possibility 1:
Peroz decides to Persianize the Greeks, Arameans and Egyptians, not the Armenians. We have first Persian-Greeks, Persian-Arameans and Persian-Egyptians and then Persians

Possibility 2:
Peroz Persianizes only the Greeks

Possibility 3:
The Armenians

Possibility 4:
All of the cultures of the ERE

Possibility 5-?:
Different combinations of the same scenario

(Consequense: Roman Cultural Influence weakens even more, further Barbarianizing Europe. Zoroastrian becoming the major religion of Eastern Europe, Arianism proabably in the west, Nicene most likely dead.)

Possibility ?-?:
Peroz becomes Christian and some culture in the ERE

Peroz becomes Egyptian and Christian

(The list goes on and on)
 
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