When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Duarte]

what culture conversions will be in the mod?

 

[Erik W]

I agree. The point I had originally raised was that Spain was not greatly settled by Goths, just as the Huns did not settle in great numbers. I think that we need some way for rulers to switch more quickly and easily to the cultures they rule over.

In that case, we need a lot of Romano-Barbarian cultures (because you can´t just make the jump from Barbarian to Roman in an instant), like in this case, Romano-Gothic or Romano-Visigothic. This also raises another issue: should the Romano-Barbarians really be in the Roman Culture Group or a group of their own?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

In that case, we need a lot of Romano-Barbarian cultures (because you can´t just make the jump from Barbarian to Roman in an instant), like in this case, Romano-Gothic or Romano-Visigothic. This also raises another issue: should the Romano-Barbarians really be in the Roman Culture Group or a group of their own?

The Roman culture is already divided, we should use those + any barbarian culture = modern equivalent. E.g. Gaulo-Roman + Frank = French.

It is dirty, but it is quick and it works. It also doesn't need a billion cultures.

Remember, in 480 ROME HAS FAILED. I understand that the chance for a miraculous recovery in the hands of the player is possible, but the days of fora and togas are dead and buried.

 

[Erik W]

In that case, we need a lot of Romano-Barbarian cultures (because you can´t just make the jump from Barbarian to Roman in an instant), like in this case, Romano-Gothic or Romano-Visigothic. This also raises another issue: should the Romano-Barbarians really be in the Roman Culture Group or a group of their own?

Something I just realized is that is has to work the other way too, we would need MANY Barbarian-Roman cultures and even more Barbarian-(other)Barbarian cultures. Example:

Clovis I and Alaric II doesn´t fight each other and divide Gaul between them. They don´t bother each other ever again.

Alaric decides to make Hispania Visigothia and begins to persecute and convert Romans into Visi-Romans and then finally Visigoths. Arianism becomes a Barbarianized (and most likely pagan-influenced) Christianity.

Meanwhile, Clovis finds Romans really nice and tries to make both his people and himself into Romans, becomes Romano-Frankish and after a time, Romans with their own Empire, the Northern version. (Nicene proabably catapults into pagan parts of Britannia, Germania and eventually Scandinavia extra fast)

 

[Erik W]

The Roman culture is already divided, we should use those + any barbarian culture = modern equivalent. E.g. Gaulo-Roman + Frank = French.

It is dirty, but it is quick and it works. It also doesn't need a billion cultures.

Remember, in 480 ROME HAS FAILED. I understand that the chance for a miraculous recovery in the hands of the player is possible, but the days of fora and togas are dead and buried.

It failed in the real world and it didn´t turn out Barbarian. Even without their Empire, the Romans still civilized Europe (mainly through the spread of Christianity yes but still, it was Roman in essence).

 

[Erik W]

"Barbarian-Barbarian culture" Example:

Alaric II makes peace with Clovis and goes on and does his own thing in Hispania.

Suddenly, Theodemund, king of the Suebi, burst out Gallaecia completely without warning, conquers Hispania and banishes Alaric to Gaul in ever-lasting shame.

Option 1: Theodemund converts remaining Romans and Visigoths into Suebi-Goths/Suebi-Romans and then fully fledged Suebians.

Option 2: Theodemund thinks "Hey, the Visigoths are cool, lets be like them" and converts himself and his people to Visi-Suebi and then Visigoths, creating two Visigothic Kingdoms (provded of course that Alaric hasn´t been ass-stomped by Clovis). He leaves the Romans alone (maybe even giving independence to... something Roman)

Option 3: Theodemund Barbarianizes the Romans too, into Suebi-Romans, then Suebians

Option 4: Theodemund Romanizes the Suebians, leaves remaining Visigoths alone

Option 5: Theodemund Romanizes all of Hispania

 

[Aetherius]

I think you should divide dejure Gaul's kingdoms like following :

- An armorican kingdom, divided into three titular kingdoms : Bro-Ereg, Dumnonia and Kernev.
- Gaulish Visigothica should divided in dejure : Aquitanica, Narbonensis (the mediterranean coast), and a visigoth homeland in Toulouse/Tolosa.
- Soissons is a problem. Pre-Frankish northern France is badly documented, si it is hard to tell what is recognized by who. If Syagrius call himslef Dux, it seems that Emperor Anthemius gave him the title of patrician. Eventually, he his named "king of the romans" by his neighbors. Now, should Soissons be renamed "roman kingdom" to fit most other rulers thought ? I think you should make of Soissons a titular title, with roman provinces as dejure kingdoms. Syagrius could later create a unique roman title in Gaul if he defeats his opponents.

 

[Bj0rn]

"Barbarian-Barbarian culture" Example:

Alaric II makes peace with Clovis and goes on and does his own thing in Hispania.

Suddenly, Theodemund, king of the Suebi, burst out Gallaecia completely without warning, conquers Hispania and banishes Alaric to Gaul in ever-lasting shame.

Option 1: Theodemund converts remaining Romans and Visigoths into Suebi-Goths/Suebi-Romans and then fully fledged Suebians.

Option 2: Theodemund thinks "Hey, the Visigoths are cool, lets be like them" and converts himself and his people to Visi-Suebi and then Visigoths, creating two Visigothic Kingdoms (provded of course that Alaric hasn´t been ass-stomped by Clovis). He leaves the Romans alone (maybe even giving independence to... something Roman)

Option 3: Theodemund Barbarianizes the Romans too, into Suebi-Romans, then Suebians

Option 4: Theodemund Romanizes the Suebians, leaves remaining Visigoths alone

Option 5: Theodemund Romanizes all of Hispania

Option 6: Theodemund romanizes the Suebians and barbarize the Romans, making a Romano-suebian culture, and later on romano-suebianizes the Visigoths and become Portuguese culture

I liked how Mr. Capitalist sees it. You should think of the melting pot in three stages. When two cultures mix and when these two cultures mix with another culture. Depending on the combination, it can lead to real world cultures. Locality could also influence it (as in Léonese appearing in Léon as a product of Visigothic, Suebian and Roman union, or Castille with Visigothic and Roman after a while). Some cultures, like the castillian example I gave, could evolve naturally over time if maintained in a certain frame (as in visigoths get together with romans and become Romano-Visigoths. Then, after a while, they become Castillian.), kinda like the Norse.

 

[Bj0rn]

I think you should divide dejure Gaul's kingdoms like following :

- An armorican kingdom, divided into three titular kingdoms : Bro-Ereg, Dumnonia and Kernev.
- Gaulish Visigothica should divided in dejure : Aquitanica, Narbonensis (the mediterranean coast), and a visigoth homeland in Toulouse/Tolosa.
- Soissons is a problem. Pre-Frankish northern France is badly documented, si it is hard to tell what is recognized by who. If Syagrius call himslef Dux, it seems that Emperor Anthemius gave him the title of patrician. Eventually, he his named "king of the romans" by his neighbors. Now, should Soissons be renamed "roman kingdom" to fit most other rulers thought ? I think you should make of Soissons a titular title, with roman provinces as dejure kingdoms. Syagrius could later create a unique roman title in Gaul if he defeats his opponents.

Nice. I'd like to be able to revive roman culture, with their tri-part names and their gods and stuff And being called Imperator or Rex is a lot cooler then Emperor or King. You could maybe even have some harder conditions to maintain yourself roman. As in:

If you are a roman king, but do not have your capital in Italy, you would gradually merge your culture with the natives. So, if oyu are in France, you'd gradually become Gaullic-Roman and later on French. But if you are able to keep control of Italy, where the general roman culture still lives, you'd be able to maintain yourself truly roman What do you guys think?

That way, if you are a roman king of a Gaullish France, you'd after a while go from Rex to Roy before you notice. That would make conquoring Rome back something actually important for the maintainance of the Roman Culture.

 

[Enlil]

What your saying is that they can´t reassert themselves? While I agree that no religion should be too powerful, not even Christianity, I think that every single pagan religion should be reformable and that all the branches of Christianity should have the same "conversion power". Or am I just being unhistorical now?

No, I accidentally gave them a ludicrous troop increase modifier.

I agree with that Arianism seems more powerful and more fun to be and I certainly would welcome the idea if every religion could holy war every other religion, even Nicene against Arianism and the other heresies

Nicene and Arianism can holy war.

I feel like there is a bit too much settling going on, especially of the Huns and Visigoths.

The Huns own so little land, I have no idea how this happens.

I've figured out how to get the legions working, seeing as it's the first time I've been modding, they'll probably be up tomorrow, or as soon as I can get flags for them.
Any ideas on the numbers and how many?

Excellent
!

I love the resurgent Huns.

Me too

This is likely your last priority, but I recommend asking for better religious icons on AnaxXiphos' art thread. right now the icons look pretty ugly.

They do and I will!

Exactly this. The Visigoths and the Huns should not be that powerful and be threatened by Tengri hordes (the Huns) and by Muslims (if they exist) or Franks (the visigoths). Also they should have to fight a lot of revolts. A lot of big Empires that should not be existing due to being pushed by other migrants. But this is maybe a bit to early too, to make any conclusion. Central Europe is just a mess.

I'm working on continual migrations, (Pechenegs, Turks, Cumans), to keep the area unstable. I also made it that Steppe Paganism has incredible new ruler penalties, so large nations will stay in revolt, but major military powers, (the Mongols) can keep their state alive.

I agree. The point I had originally raised was that Spain was not greatly settled by Goths, just as the Huns did not settle in great numbers. I think that we need some way for rulers to switch more quickly and easily to the cultures they rule over.

I changed the culture conversion events to go much slower for the Huns.

It failed in the real world and it didn´t turn out Barbarian. Even without their Empire, the Romans still civilized Europe (mainly through the spread of Christianity yes but still, it was Roman in essence).

Yep.

I think you should divide dejure Gaul's kingdoms like following :

- An armorican kingdom, divided into three titular kingdoms : Bro-Ereg, Dumnonia and Kernev.
- Gaulish Visigothica should divided in dejure : Aquitanica, Narbonensis (the mediterranean coast), and a visigoth homeland in Toulouse/Tolosa.
- Soissons is a problem. Pre-Frankish northern France is badly documented, si it is hard to tell what is recognized by who. If Syagrius call himslef Dux, it seems that Emperor Anthemius gave him the title of patrician. Eventually, he his named "king of the romans" by his neighbors. Now, should Soissons be renamed "roman kingdom" to fit most other rulers thought ? I think you should make of Soissons a titular title, with roman provinces as dejure kingdoms. Syagrius could later create a unique roman title in Gaul if he defeats his opponents.

Currently there are the kingdoms of Armorica, Septem Provincae, Lugdunensis, and Belgica

 

[JonStryker]

Option 6: Theodemund romanizes the Suebians and barbarize the Romans, making a Romano-suebian culture, and later on romano-suebianizes the Visigoths and become Portuguese culture

I liked how Mr. Capitalist sees it. You should think of the melting pot in three stages. When two cultures mix and when these two cultures mix with another culture. Depending on the combination, it can lead to real world cultures. Locality could also influence it (as in Léonese appearing in Léon as a product of Visigothic, Suebian and Roman union, or Castille with Visigothic and Roman after a while). Some cultures, like the castillian example I gave, could evolve naturally over time if maintained in a certain frame (as in visigoths get together with romans and become Romano-Visigoths. Then, after a while, they become Castillian.), kinda like the Norse.

That would imply that the Suebians and Visigoths had a significant influence on any of those cultures. But do they? To me it more seems as if those peoples were absorbed into the local populations without much of a trace. Neither the Germanic tribes nor the Arab invaders afterwards left any significant influence on the Hispanic languages.

The more accurate solution would be to either make all Romance regions "Roman" at start and split it up by de jure kingdoms lateron. Or (even easier) put the resulting cultures on the map from the get go -> Galician-Portuguese, Castilian, Catalan, Occitan, French, etc.
Events could coerce the Germanic ruling class to "blend in" and adopt the "Roman" way of life (i.e. convert them to the local variant of Roman).

 

[JonStryker]

@Mr. Capiatlist
Why is the Germanic influence needed anyways? Do you think that French people would behave totally different if it weren't for the invading Barbarians? Vulgar Roman dialects started to drift apart even when the Western Roman Empire was still a functioning thing.

 

[Enlil]

Tomorrow I will begin another round of Dejure Changes, this time you will see:

e_gaul = {

k_armorica
d_armorica

k_septem_provinciae
d_aquitanica
d_tolosa
d_novempopulana
d_narbonensis_superior
d_narbonensis_inferior
d_viennensis
d_alpes_maritimae

k_lugdunensis
d_noviodunum
d_celtica
d_lugdunum
d_gallia

k_belgica
d_camaracum
d_nemetacum
d_samarobriua
d_durocotorum
d_germania_inferior
d_germania_superior

k_pannonia
d_noricum
d_pannonia_superior
d_pannonia_inferior
d_liguria
d_aemilia
d_venetia_et_istria
d_raetia

 

[Enlil]

 

[Enlil]

Sorry for more pictures, but here are portrayals of some of the playable characters in game:

Odoacer:

Theodoric:

Syagrius:

Zenon:

Childeric:

 

[flyguy117]

Snip

I agree with Mr. Capiatlist however, some languages were influenced by two or more different languages. Look at Spanish. Before the Moorish conquest, Hispania was showing major signs of "Gothicization", almost every christian had a name of Gothic origin. If the Visigothic kingdom continued in existence, I can see a more distinctive romance based "Gothic" emerging. But, as we know, the visigothic kingdom fell to the Moors. This introduced many Arabic based words into the Spanish language. So, If we go from immediately from Ibero-Roman to Castillian, we skip a huge chunk of the Spainsh language which came from the Moors.

Edit: Did Odoacer really have such a magnificent mustache?

 

[JonStryker]

I agree with Mr. Capiatlist however, some languages were influenced by two or more different languages. Look at Spanish. Before the Moorish conquest, Hispania was showing major signs of "Gothicization", almost every christian had a name of Gothic origin. If the Visigothic kingdom continued in existence, I can see a more distinctive romance based "Gothic" emerging. But, as we know, the visigothic kingdom fell to the Moors. This introduced many Arabic based words into the Spanish language. So, If we go from immediately from Ibero-Roman to Castillian, we skip a huge chunk of the Spainsh language which came from the Moors.

People's names do not really matter. Yes, they were in use and are partially still in use. But that doesn't imply that the Germanic influence was big at all. Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Spanish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influences_on_the_Spanish_language#Gothic


The Germanic invading peoples were most likely pretty much assimilated BEFORE vulgar latin really started to drift apart.

 

[Enlil]

Did Odoacer really have such a magnificent mustache?

Even on his coins

 

[battlefury13]

can i beta test Pl0x

 

[flyguy117]

People's names do not really matter.

People's names matter greatly. They show signs that the population of Hispania had accepted the goths and parts of the Gothic culture. It shows signs that the popualtion was assimulating. The Islamic conquest cut it short. Have a look at the link below, specifically the last chapter Gothia and Hispania.

ftp://istorichka.ru/upload/Goths/Visigothic%20Spain%20409%20-%20711%20(A%20History%20of%20Spain).pdf