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loup99

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Here are also some question to get back on Gaul and the Franks-discussion. Who is controlling the Franks at the startdate of 480?

It should be Childeric I who controls them (but not all only the salian franks). At his death his land's should be divided between his sons and his title destroyed. Clovis isn't the only viable leader of the Franks and it was through war that he became king of all the Franks. At the start there shouldn't be any unified "Franks" tribe at all. And after his victory over Syiagrius (if he decides to go that way) he should be able to defeat or kill the other Frankish king and unify them together with the lands of Soissons.
 
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Andrzej I

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In that case, an Isaurian culture would be necesary to create and from what I can tell, its a dying branch of the native-Anatolian languages. That means that a new culture group would have to be created as well.
It depends upon how the Romano-[culture] cultures are grouped, if they are with the local culture or with the Roman culture. If the latter, it could just be Romano-Isaurian, perhaps, and grouped with the other Roman cultures, for a slight cultural penalty. If the former... then yes, a bit more difficult.
Here are also some question to get back on Gaul and the Franks-discussion. Who is controlling the Franks at the startdate of 480?

It should be Childeric I who controls them (but not all only the salian franks). At his death his land's should be divided between his sons and his title destroyed. Clovis isn't the only viable leader of the Franks and it was through war that he became king of all the Franks.
According to the pictures on the first post of this thread, it is Childeric.
 

Erik W

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Here are also some question to get back on Gaul and the Franks-discussion. Who is controlling the Franks at the startdate of 480?

It should be Childeric I who controls them (but not all only the salian franks). At his death his land's should be divided between his sons and his title destroyed. Clovis isn't the only viable leader of the Franks and it was through war that he became king of all the Franks. At the start there shouldn't be any unified "Franks" tribe at all. And after his victory over Syiagrius (if he decides to go that way) he should be able to defeat or kill the other Frankish king and unify them together with the lands of Soissons.
Well that would be true in most cases, except this one. From what I can tell, Childeric had no sons BUT Clovis. He had three daughters but only one son. So Clovis doesn´t have any rivals and inherits the entire Frankish Kingdom.
 

loup99

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According to the pictures on the first post of this thread, it is Childeric.
Good, it was by reading the AAR that I was doubting. He should (if I remember correctly) be of weak health.

Well that would be true in most cases, except this one. From what I can tell, Childeric had no sons BUT Clovis. He had three daughters but only one son. So Clovis doesn´t have any rivals and inherits the entire Frankish Kingdom.
Yes but he will only inherit the Salian Franks and not the rest that was controlled by another frankish king. The ripuary ones to be exact. If he manages to defeat them there should be a decision to unify all the Franks.
 

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Good, it was by reading the AAR that I was doubting. He should (if I remember correctly) be of weak health.



Yes but he will only inherit the Salian Franks and not the rest that was controlled by another frankish king. The ripuary ones to be exact. If he manages to defeat them there should be a decision to unify all the Franks.
Is it possible to run the franks like the republics, with the different tribal groups being represented by families? Maybe have a independence event on each succession?
 

Andrzej I

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So, split the Franks in two - Salian and Ripuarian - and maybe add a decision to unite the Franks if both regal Frank titles are held by one person? Perhaps give Clovis a claim on the Ripuarians?
 

Erik W

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Something that I just realized: The Franks would have to have some sort of personal Royal Laws, since at the death of a ruler, his titles is distrubted among his sons. Or does Agnatic Gavelkind simulate that accurately enough?
 

Andrzej I

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Agnatic gavelkind should suffice for that. The question is if the, and other like tribes, can be encouraged to remain with such succession laws for several hundred years, or if it might be like vanilla, where realms switch to primogeniture within a hundred or two hundred years.
 

Enlil

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Will all of the germanic tribes for migration and dejure work similar to the Magyars in 867? Will they all be tribal kingdoms that become imidietly dejure when they settle and choose there area of final rest? Also this would be quiet hard to model but do you have a system to make it so that the tribes are pushing eachother "forward"?

None of them will work like the Magyars. A tribal nation can make the descision to migrate, exchanging all land for soldiers and having a massive range of conquest. Some important migrations will fire as events for the Lombards and Avars, giving them the choice to invade their selected areas.

There is certainly a lot to make indepth with those councils. There could be very long eventchains concerning these and religion with many different alternatives. Will be interesting to see that in your next AAR.
Yeah, Councils are quite interesting, possible schisms are lurking, alternate histories galore. But I am not super knowledgeable on these councils, so if someone could make a post detailing the ones they think are most important that would be great.

I might have an idea for this, which I'm going to try when I'm back home later today.
Thank you!

In that case, an Isaurian culture would be necesary to create and from what I can tell, its a dying branch of the native-Anatolian languages. That means that a new culture group would have to be created as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaurian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages
Already exists in game.

Well that would be true in most cases, except this one. From what I can tell, Childeric had no sons BUT Clovis. He had three daughters but only one son. So Clovis doesn´t have any rivals and inherits the entire Frankish Kingdom.
No, 3 daughters and 2 sons are in game.

So, split the Franks in two - Salian and Ripuarian - and maybe add a decision to unite the Franks if both regal Frank titles are held by one person? Perhaps give Clovis a claim on the Ripuarians?
Sure thung.

Agnatic gavelkind should suffice for that. The question is if the, and other like tribes, can be encouraged to remain with such succession laws for several hundred years, or if it might be like vanilla, where realms switch to primogeniture within a hundred or two hundred years.
I don't know how to do this...
 

Andrzej I

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Well, a thought might be raising the requirements for raising crown authority, which should make primogeniture and the like more difficult to accomplish.
 

Erik W

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Agnatic gavelkind should suffice for that. The question is if the, and other like tribes, can be encouraged to remain with such succession laws for several hundred years, or if it might be like vanilla, where realms switch to primogeniture within a hundred or two hundred years.
It could perhaps be linked to the conversion to Christianity, as the Barbarians settle down and Romano-Christianize themselves, they begin to see their own traditions as outdated, unfair and unmodern. Maybe it can be linked, through events, to assert itself within 200-500 years after their conversion? Is that possible?

Edit: Question already answered
 

loup99

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No agnatic Gavelkind! The title can be destroyed upon death as the AGOT-mod models it. Gavelkind is just a mess and not at all acurate for the Franks. The titles where associated (near to eachother) and divided between the sones equitably. Also this would be good:
So, split the Franks in two - Salian and Ripuarian - and maybe add a decision to unite the Franks if both regal Frank titles are held by one person? Perhaps give Clovis a claim on the Ripuarians?
Not Clovis but his father should have a claim on the Ripuarians and then he might inherit it.
 

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Agnatic gavelkind should suffice for that. The question is if the, and other like tribes, can be encouraged to remain with such succession laws for several hundred years, or if it might be like vanilla, where realms switch to primogeniture within a hundred or two hundred years.
Enlil said:
I don't know how to do this...
Something like (in decisions/succession_laws):
Code:
	succ_primogeniture = {
		oldest_child_opinion = 20
		youngest_child_opinion = -30
		child_opinion = -20
		dynasty_opinion = -5
		potential = {
			holder_scope = {
				OR = {
					independent = yes
					NOT = {
						any_liege = {
							holy_order = yes
						}
					}
				}
				NOT = { religion_group = muslim }
[COLOR="#FF0000"]				NOT = {culture = frankish }[/COLOR]
				OR = {
					NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
					is_reformed_religion = yes
					religion = hellenic_pagan
				}
				
				is_merchant_republic = no
				is_patrician = no
			}
			OR = {
				is_landless_type_title = no
				is_tribal_type_title = yes
				temporary = yes
			}
			is_primary_type_title = no
			OR = {
				AND = {
					tier = baron
					is_feudal = yes
				}
				holder_scope = { is_feudal = yes }
			}
		}
		allow = {
			OR = {
				hidden_tooltip = {
					has_crown_law_title = no
				}
				crownlaw_title = {
					OR = {
						has_law = centralization_3
						has_law = centralization_4
					}
				}
			}
		}
		
		effect = {
			succession = primogeniture
		}
		revoke_allowed = {
			always = no
		}			
	}
and do that for each succession law you don't want available to Franks.
 

loup99

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Maybe primogeniture could be available once they are French in that case?

Also what do you think about more bookmarks Enlil?
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Maybe primogeniture could be available once they are French in that case?
Basing succession laws on culture and not religion/laws/technology might be risky. What if it required Legalism III instead? That'll help delay it.
 

loup99

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Basing succession laws on culture and not religion/laws/technology might be risky. What if it required Legalism III instead? That'll help delay it.
That might solve it, would also be good for other people than the Franks.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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That might solve it, would also be good for other people than the Franks.
I am mostly concerned that with so much history to change there might never BE French people.
 

loup99

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I am mostly concerned that with so much history to change there might never BE French people.
Yes, but even though they might not be french they would still need to settle at an other place and therfor change their succesion and that would be better with your suggestion since it would disallove them to change wherever they settle.

The best solution for the rest concerning the franks is to:
  • Divide the franks into; the salians and the ripuaries
  • Give Childeric a strong claim on the ripuaries at start
  • Make a new decision to unify the both frankish tribes
  • Destroy the kingdom title at the death of a Frankish ruler in the AGOT-way
  • Let the duchies that become created out of this make themselves kings (maybe just petty kings or something similar)
  • Make a certain level of legalism required to change sucession law

    Edit:
  • The male heirs of the king should inherit different ducal titles of the ancient kingdom and vassalise the vassals equitably. I do not know if this possible though.


 
Last edited:

Enlil

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Maybe primogeniture could be available once they are French in that case?

Also what do you think about more bookmarks Enlil?
I loke the new bookmarks, but first I want to finish the base mod.

Yes, but even though they might not be french they would still need to settle at an other place and therfor change their succesion and that would be better with your suggestion since it would disallove them to change wherever they settle.

The best solution for the rest concerning the franks is to:
  • Divide the franks in to; the salians and the ripuaries
  • Give Childeric a strong claim on the ripuaries at start
  • Make a new decision to unify the both frankish tribes
  • Destroy the kingdom title at the death of a Frankish ruler in the AGOT-way


Looks like a good solution to me, and should they have event troops after unifying.
 
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