When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

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Zusk

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Enlil

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Okay! We have victory! I went through every single event text, and found the one with the problem. That's fixed now, so I can get back to trying to figure out how to get the uniting the Franks decision working.
 

loup99

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Okay! We have victory! I went through every single event text, and found the one with the problem. That's fixed now, so I can get back to trying to figure out how to get the uniting the Franks decision working.

Great! Looking forward to the AAR and the beta!
 

Enlil

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Okay, I am planning on making a second request to AnaxXiphos. (Unless that would be too demanding, I mean, he already did a ton for this)

The Icons:
Germanic Paganism
Iranian Paganism
Saxon Paganism
Georgian Orthodoxy


Major Heresies (If they becomes the Orthodoxy)
Arianism (So big, they deserve to have something greater than the Chalcedonian Wooden Cross )
Donatistic (Got a soft spot for these guys)
Valentinianism (In many areas )
Pneumatomachi (One of the most Anti-Nicene Heresies)
 

loup99

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Does Arianism need to be a heresy? It is better to have it as it\s own branch of Christendom to represent the difference between it and Nicene. It should still be able to wage holy war against the nicene, though in that case.
 

Ofaloaf

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Does Arianism need to be a heresy? It is better to have it as it\s own branch of Christendom to represent the difference between it and Nicene. It should still be able to wage holy war against the nicene, though in that case.
Arianism was a heresy of mainstream/Nicene/Roman/Chalcedonian Christianity, though. Having it as a heresy fits its behavior and treatment well-- the Ostrogoths' Arianism was a bone of contention between them and pro-Constantinople Romans in Italy, and the Visigoths, originally Arians, converted en masse to, er, Nicene-Chalcedonian-Catholic Christianity in the late 6th century, and that flip is pretty well done in CK2 by having a heretic decide to return to the True Faith.
 

Enlil

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Arianism was a heresy of mainstream/Nicene/Roman/Chalcedonian Christianity, though. Having it as a heresy fits its behavior and treatment well-- the Ostrogoths' Arianism was a bone of contention between them and pro-Constantinople Romans in Italy, and the Visigoths, originally Arians, converted en masse to, er, Nicene-Chalcedonian-Catholic Christianity in the late 6th century, and that flip is pretty well done in CK2 by having a heretic decide to return to the True Faith.

Exactly!
 

loup99

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Arianism was a heresy of mainstream/Nicene/Roman/Chalcedonian Christianity, though. Having it as a heresy fits its behavior and treatment well-- the Ostrogoths' Arianism was a bone of contention between them and pro-Constantinople Romans in Italy, and the Visigoths, originally Arians, converted en masse to, er, Nicene-Chalcedonian-Catholic Christianity in the late 6th century, and that flip is pretty well done in CK2 by having a heretic decide to return to the True Faith.

I know it was a heresy so to say, but I dislike the fact that it could pop_up in the middle of another christian kingdom bacause of "studies" by your spymaster. Furthermore not everybody converted en masse and it was not really created in the same way as the other heresies in CK2, lollardy for example. Another problem is that the arians actually conveted germanic pagans without them being Nicene before the conversion to arianism. The theology of this branch is also so fundamentally different that it is, in my opion, better modeled as an independant branch.

A good thing with having it as an heresy, though, is that it cold replace chacedonian christainty if it becomes major in comparison to that branch. That could maybe be modeled by a council instead of having it as a heresy. The point you brring up is good too, but it could be easily modeled by events. For example if an arian ruler is not zealous and maybe tolerant to nicene he can make a such conversion. Also the tolerant traits can be used to model visigothic tolerance towards nicene, and eventual conversion.

Talking about councils, this brings up another problem: what will happen if catholicism or orthodoxy are created and arianism still exist. It should then , if being an heresy, be an heresy of the both which is impossible.
 
Last edited:

Ofaloaf

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I know it was a heresy so to say, but I dislike the fact that it could pop_up in the middle of another christian kingdom bacause of "studies" by your spymaster. Furthermore not everybody converted en masse and it was not really created in the same way as the other heresies in CK2, lollardy for example. [...] The theology of this branch is also so fundamentally different that it is, in my opion, better modeled as an independant branch.
And Catharism isn't as different from Catholicism as Arianism is from old Nicene teachings? Heck, Messalians are a Nestorian heresy in CK2, and yet I'm not even sure what the devil Messalianism should be defined as a heresy of or what. Behavior as molded by mechanics should take precedence over theological differences; in that regard, Arianism as a Nicene heresy is spot on, and still nonetheless fits moderately well with CK2's treatment of the Cathar-Catholic relationship and a few other heresies.

Another problem is that the arians actually conveted germanic pagans without them being Nicene before the conversion to arianism.
Heretics in regular CK2 can convert pagans, can't they? Never occurred to me to try that out before now.
A good thing with having it as an heresy, though, is that it cold replace chacedonian christainty if it becomes major in comparison to that branch. That could maybe be modeled by a council instead of having it as a heresy.
The events for a heresy turning into the parent religion are already in Sons of Abraham, though. Why bother reworking a system of church councils and decisions when what the game has works fairly well already?
 

loup99

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And Catharism isn't as different from Catholicism as Arianism is from old Nicene teachings? Heck, Messalians are a Nestorian heresy in CK2, and yet I'm not even sure what the devil Messalianism should be defined as a heresy of or what. Behavior as molded by mechanics should take precedence over theological differences; in that regard, Arianism as a Nicene heresy is spot on, and still nonetheless fits moderately well with CK2's treatment of the Cathar-Catholic relationship and a few other heresies.

This brings up the problem I edited in in the first post: the division of the nicene faith into catholicism and orthodoxy after a council (the feature was described earlier by Enlil). In that case what branch should have arianism as its heresy (if it has survived)? I personally, though, thinks that ariansim is more different from nicene than catholicism vs cathars, but that may just be my personal opinion. There is a main differnece, too, between the so called "heresies" of the early medieval ages and the late ones.

Heretics in regular CK2 can convert pagans, can't they? Never occurred to me to try that out before now.

Can they? In that case it is not a problem, I thought they could not.
The events for a heresy turning into the parent religion are already in Sons of Abraham, though. Why bother reworking a system of church councils and decisions when what the game has works fairly well already?

They work "fairly" well already. Enlil has already reworked the councils earlier so it is better to have our own more accurate system than relying on a "fairly" vanilla system in my opinion. If he already have changed the schisms and mendings of vanilla, why not taking a look at this too?
 

Erik W

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I agree with you loup, Arianism should have the possibility to become a major branch of Christianity. If it becomes powerful and survives long enough (like 200-300 years or something) then it should be possible for it to become a major branch. This would happen if like 50-100 provinces are Arian after 200-300 years into the game. It would really be fun to see Arianism become what Catholicism is for Western Europe today.
 

Ofaloaf

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This brings up the problem I edited in in the first post: the division of the nicene faith into catholicism and orthodoxy after a council (the feature was described earlier by Enlil). In that case what branch should have arianism as its heresy (if it has survived)?
Oh, Catholicism. The (Ostro- and Visi-)Goths, the Vandals, Burgundians, Suebi and Lombards were all Arians. The Visigoths converted and followed the Roman side of Church affairs, the Lombards were in Italy and well yeah they became Catholic, and the rest were beat up by folks who either were Catholic or later on took the Catholic side of things.

I mean, if you really wanted something dynamic above all else you could try and make a set of events which would redefine Arianism as an Orthodox faith for the remote chance that all the western Arian kingdoms are killed off but then Arian flourishes as a Nicene heresy in the east, but that's a highly remote chance, a big headache to do and really, the Arians were primarily in the West and in lands that would later be Catholic, defining them as a Catholic heresy after the East-West split is a pretty clear thing to do.
 

shadow121292

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This brings up the problem I edited in in the first post: the division of the nicene faith into catholicism and orthodoxy after a council (the feature was described earlier by Enlil). In that case what branch should have arianism as its heresy (if it has survived)? I personally, though, thinks that ariansim is more different from nicene than catholicism vs cathars, but that may just be my personal opinion. There is a main difference, too, between the so called "heresies" of the early medieval ages and the late ones.

Arianism would be better suited for a Catholicism heresy. Arianism was predominant in the West although another option would be to have two Arianisms as heresies one for Catholicism and one for Orthodoxy.

Arianism should have the ability to become a major branch of Christianity but it should only be like the standard Sons of Abraham mechanics of having more provinces than the parent religion. Arianism was defined as heresy by 2 councils and for 200 years already and a large part of why Arianism even became fashionable in Germanic Courts was because it was used to separate the Germanic Kings and their culture from that of the local inhabitants who barring the North Africa region were all Chalcedonian. In fact for much of Western Europe it should be between Pagans and Chalcedonian Christianity with Germanic rulers being Arian. A player or really ambitious AI(Like the Vandals hopefully) would attempt to stay Arian and force conversion on their populace while the large number of Chalcedonian Christians will convert most of the Germanic kings within a few generations or so.
 

tsf4

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Enlil, I think the Tengri area should be from north of the Black Sea to Volga Bulgaria. Then the Iranian area could split the Caucasus with Tengri around where Georgia is in vanilla CK2, and then should extend to "Bactra" where Indian religions should start to dominate.
 

Enlil

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Enlil, I think the Tengri area should be from north of the Black Sea to Volga Bulgaria. Then the Iranian area could split the Caucasus with Tengri around where Georgia is in vanilla CK2, and then should extend to "Bactra" where Indian religions should start to dominate.

Sounds great!
 

Enlil

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Okay, we made a breakthrough. It turns out you can set individual holy sites for heresies. Because of that, Donatism, Arianism, Ebionites, ect. have had their holy sites tweaked to be more centered on that heresies' holy sites (Donatism having Carthage and Siracuse instead of Rome, whose authority they despised.
 

alxeu

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Okay, we made a breakthrough. It turns out you can set individual holy sites for heresies. Because of that, Donatism, Arianism, Ebionites, ect. have had their holy sites tweaked to be more centered on that heresies' holy sites (Donatism having Carthage and Siracuse instead of Rome, whose authority they despised.

Hurrah! I hope more breakthroughs of this caliber can be made, for it is things like this that really help mods.
 
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