When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

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Erik W

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No-one has historically-sized armies. The Byzantines can raise 13000 troops in 1066 (varying each load with randomized traits impacting total levy numbers, of course)-- that number is nowhere near historically accurate. A lowball figure for Byzantine troops present at Manzikert in 1081 is 40000, and the high-end estimate is 70000-- both figures are far more than the Byzantines can raise, and those Manzikert figures are only for the troops present at one battle and not all the garrisons and field armies elsewhere in the empire. Heck, the 634 Battle of Firaz allegedly had the combined Persian-Byzantine forces field an army over one hundred thousand strong (and then lost that battle)-- are you going to try and realistically bring ERE and Persian levy numbers up to that number by the 7th century?

Because Islam is, to echo the words of esteemed American VP Joe Biden, a big fucking deal.

That would certainly be interesting. Increasing the levies overall to represent more historical armies, that would certainly be fun. If we do that, we´ll perhaps increase the Muslim event troops as well.

And it might be a big deal in this universe, but that doesn´t mean that it has to be in another universe

please read more accurate. I said NOT for Mecca (because i know its already implemented) but for the Regions around it (Ethopia,Syria,Arabia). I mean CK2 style everyone on the map will know about it. So why not (if its possible to mod) add the possibilty for them (Regions named above) to learn more about it. Like:

"A trader from the Arabian lands brought news about a new religion forming in the region around Mecca and Medina. A mysterious prophet tells the tribes of this desert land about a god named Allah."

1. Interresting. Send a scholar (or Theologist) to learn more about it. I want to know what this prophet says. - you send a character to the location who brings back information. starts the chain were you can choose to convert,

2. Why bother me with it? Probably not more than an insane priest. It will be gone in a few years. - you decide to ignore Islam.

Good suggestion, but I would count out Syria from that, as it is farther away and would proabably not be affected by it right away. But I think this a wonderful thing for the rulers of Arabia and Ethiopia.
 

BSggg

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Good suggestion, but I would count out Syria from that, as it is farther away and would proabably not be affected by it right away. But I think this a wonderful thing for the rulers of Arabia and Ethiopia.

Thank you. I cant mod but i try to bring as much good suggestions to this mod as i can :). And i made a mistake. With Syria i meant the Levant. Historical this Area (modern day Israel, Jordania, Northern Saudi Arabia and the part of Egypt) traded with the Arabian tribes so i think news about this Event could spark interesst also i this area.
 

Enlil

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And it might be a big deal in this universe, but that doesn´t mean that it has to be in another universe

Yeah, does William always Conquer England? Do the Mongols always convert to Islam? Everything is up to change in history.
 

Ofaloaf

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That would certainly be interesting. Increasing the levies overall to represent more historical armies, that would certainly be fun. If we do that, we´ll perhaps increase the Muslim event troops as well.
Be careful with that. It'd favor large empires even more than they already are. The aforementioned Battle of Firaz, wherein a joint Persian-Byzantine force allegedly fielded over 100,000 men, had that army square off against an Islamic army 15,000-strong-- and lose. Is there any way for such results to be replicated in CK2? Even with VIET-like battle events, that battle would end in defeat for the Muslims.

The "exhausted Byzantine and Persian Empires" were able to field massive armies in the 630s, armies which in CK2 would have won. Even in their weakened state, which has been argued was necessary for the Muslims to truly gain victory and expand outward, with CK2 mechanics they'd absolutely beat the crap out of the Islamic armies. If Islam can't succeed even in historical, optimum conditions with the current mechanics and setup, then something must change.
 

Erik W

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Thank you. I cant mod but i try to bring as much good suggestions to this mod as i can :). And i made a mistake. With Syria i meant the Levant. Historical this Area (modern day Israel, Jordania, Northern Saudi Arabia and the part of Egypt) traded with the Arabian tribes so i think news about this Event could spark interesst also i this area.

Now that I think about it, even though India was never converted to any large extent by this period, that this Event thingy could be an option for Western Indian Rulers as well. They traded a lot with the Arabs as well.

Be careful with that. It'd favor large empires even more than they already are. The aforementioned Battle of Firaz, wherein a joint Persian-Byzantine force allegedly fielded over 100,000 men, had that army square off against an Islamic army 15,000-strong-- and lose. Is there any way for such results to be replicated in CK2? Even with VIET-like battle events, that battle would end in defeat for the Muslims.

The "exhausted Byzantine and Persian Empires" were able to field massive armies in the 630s, armies which in CK2 would have won. Even in their weakened state, which has been argued was necessary for the Muslims to truly gain victory and expand outward, with CK2 mechanics they'd absolutely beat the crap out of the Islamic armies. If Islam can't succeed even in historical, optimum conditions with the current mechanics and setup, then something must change.

Naturally large Empires are strong, I mean, why wouldn´t they be? And I think you´re forgetting something about that battle. The Romano-Persians had their backs to the Euphrates, with nowhere to go and the Arabs just pushed them down and killed them. I honestly don´t think that CK2 can replicate those conditions, its just not that battle-detailed of a game.
 
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Enlil

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Be careful with that. It'd favor large empires even more than they already are. The aforementioned Battle of Firaz, wherein a joint Persian-Byzantine force allegedly fielded over 100,000 men, squared off against an Islamic army 15,000-- and lost. Is there any way for such results to be replicated in CK2? Even with VIET-like battle events, that battle would end in defeat for the Muslims.

The "exhausted Byzantine and Persian Empires" were able to field massive armies in the 630s, armies which in CK2 would have won. Even in their weakened state, which has been argued was necessary for the Muslims to truly gain victory and expand outward, with CK2 mechanics they'd absolutely beat the crap out of the Islamic armies. If Islam can't succeed even in historical, optimum conditions with the current mechanics and setup, then something must change.

I can add some high-martial tactics that can allow a mastermind general to overcome a massive army.
 

Ofaloaf

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Naturally large Empires are strong, I mean, why wouldn´t they be? And I think you´re forgetting something about that battle. The Romano-Persians had their backs to the Euphrates, with nowhere to go and the Arabs just pushed them down and killed them. I honestly don´t think that CK2 can replicate those conditions, its just not that battle-detailed of a game.
So then something must be done to compensate for that lack of detail, because otherwise that'd mean denying Islam expansion into Persia and the ERE even in the best of conditions, and that is just plain dumb. Enlil's idea regarding special tactics might help out there, happily.

I can add some high-martial tactics that can allow a mastermind general to overcome a massive army.
That might help. How are the characters being generated for those mid-game events, create_character = { [stuff] attributes = { martial = [high number] } trait = brilliant_strategist } or thereabouts, or are they totally random so that the Rashidun caliphs might end up being dribbling idiots?
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Perhaps it should be more of a snow-ball thing? Spawn the Muslims with like 5k troops and every time they win a war they get more troops? Or an event pops up during their first ~100 years that automatically converts a province and then spawns 2k troops. That way if there is a big Parthian or Byzantine Empire they'll stomp all over the Muslims pretty quick, but if that region is fragmented the Muslims should have an easy time expanding.
 

Zusk

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Guys,

I already wrote the Islam events

You can look over them if you want. They are a few pages back.

Lets get past this.
 

Erik W

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So then something must be done to compensate for that lack of detail, because otherwise that'd mean denying Islam expansion into Persia and the ERE even in the best of conditions, and that is just plain dumb. Enlil's idea regarding special tactics might help out there, happily.

That might help. How are the characters being generated for those mid-game events, create_character = { [stuff] attributes = { martial = [high number] } trait = brilliant_strategist } or thereabouts, or are they totally random so that the Rashidun caliphs might end up being dribbling idiots?

Firstly: I don´t know if its possible to really compensate without rewriting the game completely

Second: Should be totally random

Perhaps it should be more of a snow-ball thing? Spawn the Muslims with like 5k troops and every time they win a war they get more troops? Or an event pops up during their first ~100 years that automatically converts a province and then spawns 2k troops. That way if there is a big Parthian or Byzantine Empire they'll stomp all over the Muslims pretty quick, but if that region is fragmented the Muslims should have an easy time expanding.

Sounds like a good thing to me, but only within the first 100 years or so. And just to point it out, the Parthians died out in the early 3rd century and Persia is ruled by the Sassanids now

Guys,

I already wrote the Islam events

You can look over them if you want. They are a few pages back.

Lets get past this.

Yes please
 

Ofaloaf

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I may be misreading things again :)confused:) but is there any event which resets Islam (& Sunni and Shia) as its own non-heretical religion? Does "set_parent_religion = { religion = islamic parent = islamic }" work as a command? I get it starting off as a heresy, but should it stay that way all the through to the end of the game?
 

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I may be misreading things again :)confused:) but is there any event which resets Islam (& Sunni and Shia) as its own non-heretical religion? Does "set_parent_religion = { religion = islamic parent = islamic }" work as a command? I get it starting off as a heresy, but should it stay that way all the through to the end of the game?

I was thinking later on there could be a event, like 100 years later that would set it as its own religion or you can have it stay as a heresy, Simulating the religion developing over time.

Such a event isn't in game though, and I should really get to it.
 

Ofaloaf

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I was thinking later on there could be a event, like 100 years later that would set it as its own religion or you can have it stay as a heresy, Simulating the religion developing over time.

Such a event isn't in game though, and I should really get to it.
I would advocate a shorter yet variable timespan, myself. That empire-tier wave of troops might be a good time to redefine parent religions-- Islam's first empire would surely work as a good mark in the religion's development. If that event doesn't fire in (100, 50, X) years, though, then a timed fallback event like you were already entertaining would be fitting.


e: I have to say, recent discussion has led me to suspect an entirely different model of Islam's birth in this mod, but this is quite nice overall.
 

Zusk

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I would advocate a shorter yet variable timespan, myself. That empire-tier wave of troops might be a good time to redefine parent religions-- Islam's first empire would surely work as a good mark in the religion's development. If that event doesn't fire in (100, 50, X) years, though, then a timed fallback event like you were already entertaining would be fitting.

That works, I can have the Empire Troops event also fire the Religion redefining event.
 

Mr Repwoc

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I was wondering if you were thinking of adding any flavour events concerning the Renaissances of the Early Middle Ages. I feel they could work really well and should be included due to their historical importance to both the people and most importantly the characters ruling at that time. Charlemagne and Alfred the Great are remembered as great rulers due to their encouragement of culture and learning in the realm. This could be implemented with a boost to culture technology and huge prestige and piety bonuses who are taking part in the rebirth of knowledge as well as other flavour events.

I also think this could work really well as a chain event. A realm randomly begins to experience a flourishing of learning (similar to Northumbria in the late 7th century) and the renaissance begins in that realm. Other rulers of the same religion and of a prerequisite prestige, piety and appropriate traits could then choose to emulate this nation by inviting scholars to their court to found an school and encourage learning (similar to Charlemagne inviting Alcuin of York, a monk brought up in the Northumbrian Golden Age) to his court to orchestrate the Carolingian Renaissance). Subsequent rulers may also which to emulate these rulers (such as Alfred the Great basing his rule on Charlemagne's).

The modifiers and events could have a mean time to stop: influenced by the traits of the subsequent rulers (someone who couldn't care less about education); warand whether a substantial amount of counties have been looted (similar to the end of the Northumbrian Golden Age when the Age of Vikings began).

I think this would add an extra dimension to the roleplaying experience of CK2. What do you think?
 

Erik W

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Sounds good to me, and it got me thinking: There really needs to be more traits in this game. Sometimes I feel that the existing vanilla ones are just too generic. Some suggestions:

Arrogant
Curious
Fat
Fit
Smallminded
Loud
Quiet
Athletic
Inspired/Inspiring
Innocent
Dreamy
Absent
 

Shonai_Dweller

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That is not true. Seljuk and Timur both appear in someone's court and then go off on an adventure to start their conquest.

And nowadays the Seljuk invasion doesn't happen every time. Paradox made it dynamic. If he's assassinated nothing happens. If he's got plenty of land he doesn't invade anyone. If he's not Turkish he just settles down as a grumbling courtier (not sure I agree with that part...).
 

Erik W

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And nowadays the Seljuk invasion doesn't happen every time. Paradox made it dynamic. If he's assassinated nothing happens. If he's got plenty of land he doesn't invade anyone. If he's not Turkish he just settles down as a grumbling courtier (not sure I agree with that part...).

I surely do. This system should defiently be integrated with the Rise of Islam. Surely, if Mohammed manages to get himself assasinated early then Islam really should just die (without a grand leader and all) after a while. And at some point, he should settle somewhere in the conquered lands.
 

Puking Panda

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Sounds good to me, and it got me thinking: There really needs to be more traits in this game. Sometimes I feel that the existing vanilla ones are just too generic. Some suggestions:

Arrogant
Curious
Fat
Fit
Smallminded
Loud
Quiet
Athletic
Inspired/Inspiring
Innocent
Dreamy
Absent

Please no, maybe add them seperately but I like to keep the traits at least somewhat orderly. Also:
Arrogant=Proud
Fat=Gluttonous
Quiet=Shy
Athletic/Fit=Strong
Inspired/Inspiring=I am pretty sure there's a Inspiring Leader combat trait in already
Innocent=??? Kind I guess
 
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