When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

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Mr. Capiatlist

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ekorovin

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I think having a "Scythian" religion for the iranian steppe cultures and a "Tengri" religion for the Altaics such as the Cumans works.
Yes, something like that, although I imagined giving it larger scope. Kurds and Afghans should be Iranian pagans too, there's no reason to believe that Buddhism penetrated nomadic Pashtu societies.
 

Erik W

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It would require human intuition, military brilliance and insight to do a lot of things, like the Merovingian Empire, Justinian's conquests, Theodoric's takeover of Italy, or even, to go back to vanilla CK2, the birth and growth of the Mongol Empire, the rise of Tamerlane, the rise of the Seljuks, or even the Hashashin. And yet, they're there, in the game, and it's a good thing they're in there.

Concerns about butterflies and the capabilities of man should take a backseat to gameplay and world-building, which is how it's done in the vanilla game and how it tends to be expanded upon in various projects (the creation of Rum and the Bulgarian Empire revolts are great and really ought to be included in vanilla). Mechanics and events are meant to compensate for the AI's inability to be a brilliant mastermind, a great khan, etc.

Of course all those events are included in the game, it wouldn´t be a historical game otherwise.

And butterflies taking a backseat? NO. Think of it like this: What if that 26 year war between Byzantium and Persia was never fought? Do you really think that a random desert tribe in Arabia would have been able (even with a unified (and remember, sparsely populated) Arabia behind them) to beat any of the superpowers at the peak of their power? Even with the best generals in the world at their side? Only because of a convenient and MASSIVE butterfly did the Arabs actually beat them. History should definetly not be hardcoded

The main difference between the mongols and seljuks and hordes in vanilla and The Rise of Islam is that Islam is within the map and the others ouside of it. Also the french community (and me too) thinks that mongol invasions are too hardcoded in vanilla also so taking vanilla as an example when making a mod for a game is not always the best (not saying that it should be radically different, though) The mongols are in vanilla, not forced to invade exactly as they did historically and it is hard for the game to make butterfly effects to outside of the map.

My point exactly.
 

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History should definetly not be hardcoded
History should be more probable than otherwise. It's what actually happened, after all. The probability of Hitler* actually surviving all the assassination attempts he had to deal with just between 1933 and 1945 shouldn't be all that high just considering the sheer quantity, and yet war games tend to not follow that stuff through, because removing Hitler removes a core part of what makes World War Two, World War Two, and carving out such a central part of that era just makes it less fun.

In much the same way, playing up the probabilities of Islam actually rising and making it much more likely that Islam doesn't succeed or even appear at all removes a key part of what on earth actually makes the Early Middle Ages the Early Middle Ages. This dynamism being promoted makes it less interesting by removing such an integral part of the era, and less fun by removing such a dynamic element from the Middle East.


*I'm not sure if this counts as an application of Godwin's Law.
 

Beamed

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Frankly, I don't understand what the issue is; more often than not, of course Islam should rise and be a very potent force against both Empires, as historically happened. If the Byzantines and Sassanids both are well-rested and have max levies, sure, they should be able to turn them back as well, but I would argue it would take a human's intuition - to quote another user - to be able to defeat the tactics and strength of the early Islamic armies.
 

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The main difference between the mongols and seljuks and hordes in vanilla and The Rise of Islam is that Islam is within the map and the others ouside of it,

That is not true. Seljuk and Timur both appear in someone's court and then go off on an adventure to start their conquest.
 

Erik W

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History should be more probable than otherwise. It's what actually happened, after all. The probability of Hitler* actually surviving all the assassination attempts he had to deal with just between 1933 and 1945 shouldn't be all that high just considering the sheer quantity, and yet war games tend to not follow that stuff through, because removing Hitler removes a core part of what makes World War Two, World War Two, and carving out such a central part of that era just makes it less fun.

In much the same way, playing up the probabilities of Islam actually rising and making it much more likely that Islam doesn't succeed or even appear at all removes a key part of what on earth actually makes the Early Middle Ages the Early Middle Ages. This dynamism being promoted makes it less interesting by removing such an integral part of the era, and less fun by removing such a dynamic element from the Middle East.

Firstly: I would not be against removing Hitler in the middle of WW2, it would be fun to have someone else as Emperor-Dictator. I would definetly not be against the idea that the entire Nazi government dies somehow and then Mussolini inherits Germany. And the history that happened in real life, IT IS JUST ONE OF AN INFINITE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE HISTORIES THAT COULD HAVE UNFOLDED. It was just random chance that we ended up in this universe. Think of it, what if the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor and whent after Australia instead? Would the US even have gotten involved in WW2 then?

Secondly: Who ever suggested removing Islam? And do you really want an ass-crushing Empire everytime? How is that more dynamic and more fun? Where is the fun in playing a game which outcome is already determined? Unpredictable games are more dynamic and fun to play. Think of it: What if the ruler of Mecca actually decides to accept Mohammed and become a Muslim? Then he wouldn´t need 20 000 guys since he wouldn´t need to go and conquer the world for no reason.
 

loup99

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That is not true. Seljuk and Timur both appear in someone's court and then go off on an adventure to start their conquest.

Yes but to be able to arrive they need to be affected by things outside of the map. The mongols are also pretty dynamic (can always be better) so that is not really a good comparison, atleast not in my opinion.

Also to respond to both you and Ofaloaf, the question is not if islam appears or not it is more around how it appears. How is it going to be if Mecca is when Mohammed appears is controled by Jews or maybe Christians? What would happen if the ruler of Mecca accepted to convet to Islam without being forced to flew?
 
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geiseric

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Which is exactly my point! It would require human intuition, military briliance and insight to create that huge an Empire with so few resources, which is why in the vast majority of games, Islam will not create a huge ass-crushing Empire. Period, case and closed

You....you missed my point by a mile. I mean there isn't really a consensus on how the Arabs did what they did, some theories but nothing concrete.
Firstly: I would not be against removing Hitler in the middle of WW2, it would be fun to have someone else as Emperor-Dictator. I would definetly not be against the idea that the entire Nazi government dies somehow and then Mussolini inherits Germany. And the history that happened in real life, IT IS JUST ONE OF AN INFINITE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE HISTORIES THAT COULD HAVE UNFOLDED. It was just random chance that we ended up in this universe. Think of it, what if the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor and whent after Australia instead? Would the US even have gotten involved in WW2 then?

Secondly: Who ever suggested removing Islam? And do you really want an ass-crushing Empire everytime? How is that more dynamic and more fun? Where is the fun in playing a game which outcome is already determined? Unpredictable games are more dynamic and fun to play. Think of it: What if the ruler of Mecca actually decides to accept Mohammed and become a Muslim? Then he wouldn´t need 20 000 guys since he wouldn´t need to go and conquer the world for no reason.
I mean its not like making them weaker is going to make the game more dynamic, it will make it less. Because that is how Paradox games work. Crusader Kings to a lesser extent granted, but it still plays by the same rules. If Islam doens't grow then they will just be replaced by either Rome or the Persians (from the map setup the persians seem more likely). I guess you could make up a thousand different new events but there already is a dedicated Alt history mod out there.
 
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Ofaloaf

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Firstly: I would not be against removing Hitler in the middle of WW2, it would be fun to have someone else as Emperor-Dictator. I would definetly not be against the idea that the entire Nazi government dies somehow and then Mussolini inherits Germany. And the history that happened in real life, IT IS JUST ONE OF AN INFINITE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE HISTORIES THAT COULD HAVE UNFOLDED. It was just random chance that we ended up in this universe. Think of it, what if the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor and whent after Australia instead? Would the US even have gotten involved in WW2 then?
Then the US either ends up entering the war a year later (and so essentially ends up with a similar outcome to what Pearl Harbor started anyways) or is isolationist (and what kind of fun is there in that?), so then either the game plays out near-historically anyways or nothing at all happens, and the latter option is no fun at all.

Secondly: Who ever suggested removing Islam? And do you really want an ass-crushing Empire everytime? How is that more dynamic and more fun? Where is the fun in playing a game which outcome is already determined? Unpredictable games are more dynamic and fun to play. Think of it: What if the ruler of Mecca actually decides to accept Mohammed and become a Muslim? Then he wouldn´t need 20 000 guys since he wouldn´t need to go and conquer the world for no reason.
Having Islam as a one-province thing in Mecca is essentially ending it prematurely and consigning it to barely a life at all. It'll maybe unite Hedjaz if it's lucky, and then Himyar will annex it or the Ghassanids will beat it to a pulp and it won't even be on the radar of an Egyptian or Syrian player. Weak affairs don't survive in CK2-- the Latin Empire gets beat to a pulp by the Byzantines even in a 1205 start, Livonia gets torn apart by pagans in post-Livonian Crusade starts, the Irish are conquered by England, and so forth. One-province non-expansionist Islamic Mecca would fare little better than that lot.

And what is the fun, unpredictability in that situation? Then there's just the ERE and Persia staring at each other and sporadically contesting Mesopotamia and Syria while Arabia just kind of quietly stews. Golly, what fun that will be!


And hell, if I was the ruler of Mecca and accepted Mohammed I still would want a 20000-man army anyways if I could.
 

BSggg

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What about the chance to convert to Islam when its rises (i mean the Nations around that area)? Can they get the Possebility to convert? You can give the AI a very small chance to convert (around 5-10%) but i think it should defenitly be in there. Atleast for the Pagans. Maybe only if you have a high learning score and you dont have zealous.

Second for Erik W: It is a fact that the NSDAP wouldnt have the power and influence that it had if Hitler was killed in the early years of his reign. All the mental illnesses aside he was a brilliant speeker (at that time) and had the power to mobilize the masses for his ideas. Without him the Nazis probably would have been only a side note in the History books.
 

loup99

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Please, read through the thread before saying that the invasion is bland and uninteresting, also the WW2 stuff is OT and not very fiiting. Rise of Islam is already implemented, and do not worry it will happen, but maybe not end up exactly as in history.

BSgg as I stated earlier, people get a possibilty to convert if they are pagan. Maybe events need to be added but this is partially already in vanilla.
 
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Erik W

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I mean its not like making them weaker is going to make the game more dynamic, it will make it less. Because that is how Paradox games work. Crusader Kings to a lesser extent granted, but it still plays by the same rules. If Islam doens't grow then they will just be replaced by either Rome or the Persians (from the map setup the persians seem more likely). I guess you could make up a thousand different new events but there already is a dedicated Alt history mod out there.

We´re not making them weaker, we´re making them realistic here. 18 000 was the size of the army that the Muslims invaded Mesopotamia with. And honestly, we can´t know that Persia or the ERE remain powerful and stable for the rest of the game. Some other power might emerge and beat the crap out of them, or they might have rebelions and crack down to smaller things.

Having Islam as a one-province thing in Mecca is essentially ending it prematurely and consigning it to barely a life at all. It'll maybe unite Hedjaz if it's lucky, and then Himyar will annex it or the Ghassanids will beat it to a pulp and it won't even be on the radar of an Egyptian or Syrian player. Weak affairs don't survive in CK2-- the Latin Empire gets beat to a pulp by the Byzantines even in a 1205 start, Livonia gets torn apart by pagans in post-Livonian Crusade starts, the Irish are conquered by England, and so forth. One-province non-expansionist Islamic Mecca would fare little better than that lot.

And what is the fun, unpredictability in that situation? Then there's just the ERE and Persia staring at each other and sporadically contesting Mesopotamia and Syria while Arabia just kind of quietly stews. Golly, what fun that will be!

And what is so bad with weak Islam? Why do they have to be a vital part of an alternate reality just because they have been one in this one? And as I said, it is not certain that the ERE and Persia remain stable for the rest of the game. In Enlil´s playthrough, Syria and Egypt became independent rather quickly and there was a massive revolt in Anatolia. The Persians managed to conquer Arabia but lost Mesopotamia and Southern and Eastern Persia to the Muslims. I think that is caotic enough for ya?

What about the chance to convert to Islam when its rises (i mean the Nations around that area)? Can they get the Possebility to convert? You can give the AI a very small chance to convert (around 5-10%) but i think it should defenitly be in there. Atleast for the Pagans. Maybe only if you have a high learning score and you dont have zealous.

NO, then Arabia would convert in an instant and that is certainly not what happened in the real world. Islam should hold the same conditions as all the other minor religions, AS IT DOESN´T HAVE TO BECOME A MAJOR RELIGION JUST BECAUSE IT DID IN THE REAL WORLD.

As loup said, please read through the discussion regarding Islam, these things have already been discussed there and don´t worry, Islam will appear in most games. Just not as powerful as it was
 

BSggg

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NO, then Arabia would convert in an instant and that is certainly not what happened in the real world. Islam should hold the same conditions as all the other minor religions, AS IT DOESN´T HAVE TO BECOME A MAJOR RELIGION JUST BECAUSE IT DID IN THE REAL WORLD.

First: calm down

Second: 5% chance and all of Arabia converts? You are unrealistic there. I already named some restrictions for the AI so why are you exaggerating?

Third: If Islam can spawn as a CHRISTIAN HERESY why cant Rulers choose to convert? Isnt this mod called "When the World stopped making sense"? So why not? Give me some answers instead of the same arguments over and over again (it shouldnt be hardcoded, it schouldnt become a major Religion every time, it shouldnt be to strong)

Forth: Islam is special. You cant denie it. It isnt like The Cult of the High God or Hellenism. Its appearance had a great impact on the world like the Conversion of Konstantin to Christianity or the Fall of Rome. So why not give it atleast this possibility? The Rise of this Religion was unlike every other Religion in the entire history. Shouldnt that make it atleast a bit special?
 
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Erik W

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Second: 5% chance and all of Arabia converts? You are unrealistic there. I already named some restrictions for the AI so why are you exaggerating?

Third: If Islam can spawn as a CHRISTIAN HERESY why cant Rulers choose to convert? Isnt this mod called "When the World stopped making sense"?
So why not? Give me some answers instead of the same arguments over and over again (it shouldnt be hardcoded, it schouldnt become a major Religion every time, it shouldnt be to strong)

I never said that they shouldn´t be able to convert, just that it should be on equal terms. Islam should not have any conversion bonuses, because they were very tolerant when it came to subject religions.
 

BSggg

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I never said that they shouldn´t be able to convert, just that it should be on equal terms. Islam should not have any conversion bonuses, because they were very tolerant when it came to subject religions.

Please read my post a bit more accurate. I never said that it should have conversion bonuses. I only suggestet to add an Event when "The Rise" happens that gives a player or AI character with high learning and without the zealous trait the possibility to start an Event chain were he can choose to convert. Its a "new" Religion in this world so it could spark some interest with educated characters. You dont need to convert in the second it appears but weres the problem with a little Event chain(2 or 3, max 5 Events) that can lead you to embracing Islam?
 

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I take it this event chain would only fire up for the ruler of Mecca? Anywhere else at start would just be weird. It would take time for the news about a new religion to reach anywhere. In that case, we already have that covered and implemented in the mod
 

Ofaloaf

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We´re not making them weaker, we´re making them realistic here.
But you won't extend that realism to Islam having a good chance at expanding. Okay.

18 000 was the size of the army that the Muslims invaded Mesopotamia with.
No-one has historically-sized armies. The Byzantines can raise 13000 troops in 1066 (varying each load with randomized traits impacting total levy numbers, of course)-- that number is nowhere near historically accurate. A lowball figure for Byzantine troops present at Manzikert in 1081 is 40000, and the high-end estimate is 70000-- both figures are far more than the Byzantines can raise, and those Manzikert figures are only for the troops present at one battle and not all the garrisons and field armies elsewhere in the empire. Heck, the 634 Battle of Firaz allegedly had the combined Persian-Byzantine forces field an army over one hundred thousand strong (and then lost that battle)-- are you going to try and realistically bring ERE and Persian levy numbers up to that number by the 7th century?

It's odd to stick with the historical number here and then eschew every other historical part of Islam's rise.
And honestly, we can´t know that Persia or the ERE remain powerful and stable for the rest of the game. Some other power might emerge and beat the crap out of them, or they might have rebelions and crack down to smaller things.
When have you ever seen Lotharingia or Frisia form in a post-Old Gods start in vanilla CK2? When does France ever break down? There are general trends in CK2 behavior that can be used to predict how things tend to turn out over the average of many games-- one of those trends is that large empires don't crack, and another is that new Big Powers don't tend to emerge without some sort of event prodding things along, like Crusades or decadence revolts.
And what is so bad with weak Islam? Why do they have to be a vital part of an alternate reality just because they have been one in this one?
Because Islam is, to echo the words of esteemed American VP Joe Biden, a big fucking deal.
 

BSggg

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please read more accurate. I said NOT for Mecca (because i know its already implemented) but for the Regions around it (Ethopia,Syria,Arabia). I mean CK2 style everyone on the map will know about it. So why not (if its possible to mod) add the possibilty for them (Regions named above) to learn more about it. Like:

"A trader from the Arabian lands brought news about a new religion forming in the region around Mecca and Medina. A mysterious prophet tells the tribes of this desert land about a god named Allah."

1. Interresting. Send a scholar (or Theologist) to learn more about it. I want to know what this prophet says. - you send a character to the location who brings back information. starts the chain were you can choose to convert,

2. Why bother me with it? Probably not more than an insane priest. It will be gone in a few years. - you decide to ignore Islam.
 
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