When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Erik W]

Really? What pages are those discussions on? I confess, I only read back through about 10 pages before beginning to post; tearing through the reams of discussions is usually not the most productive use of time, as I've found while going through other 100+ page threads.

Hopefully Islam's rise is a big shock to the world and the treatment of the Prophet is tastefully done-- a big game-changing event two centuries into the game is a perfect fit (compare to the Mongol invasions) and depicting Mohammad respectfully is just a courteous thing to do. Heck, if need be, just mention Mohammad in the invasion-warning events (compare to the rumors of the Mongols events) and then present the rise of Islam as starting a little later with the Rashidun caliphs.

Firstly: You better read through the entire thread, just to be safe.

Secondly: If you mean that Islam would be an ass-crushing Empire in every game, then that has already been discussed and rejected. In most games, Islam will proabably not create a huge empire. Think of it, it would take a human touch to create an empire that large with so few starting resoruces, and the most butterfly conditions you can find. Find the discussion regarding Islam for more info.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Firstly: You better read through the entire thread, just to be safe.

Will do!

Secondly: If you mean that Islam would be an ass-crushing Empire in every game, then that has already been discussed and rejected. In most games, Islam will proabably not create a huge empire. Think of it, it would take a human touch to create an empire that large with so few starting resoruces, and the most butterfly conditions you can find. Find the discussion regarding Islam for more info.

Butterflies shouldn't be that large of a factor, though-- vanilla CK2 allows you to start in 867, yet Tamerlane will still appear in the 1300s and that's a great thing. Those big invasions and other tumultuous events prevent the game from being a static slog of the same old, same old, and introduce a bit of history most players would otherwise never see (or have ever heard of, for some of them). Even CK2+, which made invasions more variable, still had Tamerlane appear more often than not.

The Rise of Islam likewise presents a downright perfect opportunity to shake up the game a century and a half in, and give a Middle Eastern player something more than just steady growth between (or as) two great powers. Heck, with the nature of Islam's rise it'd even be easy for them to convert, keep their territories and join the wave.

 

[JGBeagle]

Butterflies shouldn't be that large of a factor, though-- vanilla CK2 allows you to start in 867, yet Tamerlane will still appear in the 1300s and that's a great thing. Those big invasions and other tumultuous events prevent the game from being a static slog of the same old, same old, and introduce a bit of history most players would otherwise never see (or have ever heard of, for some of them). Even CK2+, which made invasions more variable, still had Tamerlane appear more often than not.

The Rise of Islam likewise presents a downright perfect opportunity to shake up the game a century and a half in, and give a Middle Eastern player something more than just steady growth between (or as) two great powers. Heck, with the nature of Islam's rise it'd even be easy for them to convert, keep their territories and join the wave.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think this "butterfly effect" is neat and all, but this mod needs to get into a complete working state before we start making alternate history. We need ti focus on what we actually know from the years 480-866 AD. Anything before and after that is moot.

 

[BSggg]

Will do!


Butterflies shouldn't be that large of a factor, though-- vanilla CK2 allows you to start in 867, yet Tamerlane will still appear in the 1300s and that's a great thing. Those big invasions and other tumultuous events prevent the game from being a static slog of the same old, same old, and introduce a bit of history most players would otherwise never see (or have ever heard of, for some of them). Even CK2+, which made invasions more variable, still had Tamerlane appear more often than not.

The Rise of Islam likewise presents a downright perfect opportunity to shake up the game a century and a half in, and give a Middle Eastern player something more than just steady growth between (or as) two great powers. Heck, with the nature of Islam's rise it'd even be easy for them to convert, keep their territories and join the wave.

That gives me an idea: Why not adding an Event for the nations around Mecca and Medina when the Rise happens like:

"The Rise of Islam"

1.Interresting. Try to gain more knowledge about it - You send an Theologist to Mecca who brings back an Iman. First step to the conversion.

2.Why bother me with it? It will be gone in a few years. - You ignore Islam.

 

[Erik W]

Butterflies shouldn't be that large of a factor, though-- vanilla CK2 allows you to start in 867, yet Tamerlane will still appear in the 1300s and that's a great thing. Those big invasions and other tumultuous events prevent the game from being a static slog of the same old, same old, and introduce a bit of history most players would otherwise never see (or have ever heard of, for some of them). Even CK2+, which made invasions more variable, still had Tamerlane appear more often than not.

The Rise of Islam likewise presents a downright perfect opportunity to shake up the game a century and a half in, and give a Middle Eastern player something more than just steady growth between (or as) two great powers. Heck, with the nature of Islam's rise it'd even be easy for them to convert, keep their territories and join the wave.

Of course Mohammad will appear in the game frequently, but his destiny is different each time. The Muslims only got so much territory because they outmanouvered the battle-exhausted Byzantine and Persian Empires, that had just finished a 26 year long war. In the vast majority of games (atleast started before Rise of Islam), that war will never happen and Persia and Byzantium stops them before they go anywhere they shouldn´t go.

And another thing, if the game just keeps to the historical way, then it WILL get boring in the end

That gives me an idea: Why not adding an Event for the nations around Mecca and Medina when the Rise happens like:

"The Rise of Islam"

1.Interresting. Try to gain more knowledge about it - You send an Theologist to Mecca who brings back an Iman. First step to the conversion.

2.Why bother me with it? It will be gone in a few years. - You ignore Islam.

This (or some Event very similar) have proabably already been added as the start of it all

 

[JGBeagle]

And another thing, if the game just keeps to the historical way, then it WILL get boring in the end

Considering that this era was full of rising and falling kingdoms I doubt it would be "boring". Boring would be three or four kingdoms blobbing up Europe and the Middle East.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Of course Mohammad will appear in the game frequently, but his destiny is different each time. The Muslims only got so much territory because they outmanouvered the battle-exhausted Byzantine and Persian Empires, that had just finished a 26 year long war. In the vast majority of games (atleast started before Rise of Islam), that war will never happen and Persia and Byzantium stops them before they go anywhere they shouldn´t go.

And the Mongols were only able to build the empire they did because China was split between the Jin and the Song, and only really began pushing west because of a dickish official in Khwarezm, and yet the Mongols are a constant presence in CK2.

And another thing, if the game just keeps to the historical way, then it WILL get boring in the end

Some basic historical points, like the Rise of Islam, can still give way to greatly varying outcomes. The alternative, to introduce Islam-like alternatives in an effort to cover for butterflies while still providing a game-changing opportunity two centuries in, is more likely to prompt a player to say "Oh, the not-Caliph of totally-not-Islam in Arabia/Egypt/Iceland has declared a not-jihad on me" rather than any intense thought on the part of the player regarding the fascinating structure and theological implications of whatever alternative is brought up, and so basically just would provide the same stuff Islam provides, but just stripped of any historicity and with a bunch of new titles the player won't recognize.

 

[BSggg]

This (or some Event very similar) have proabably already been added as the start of it all

Really? I thought it was only for the Ruler of Mecca.

 

[Erik W]

Some basic historical points, like the Rise of Islam, can still give way to greatly varying outcomes. The alternative, to introduce Islam-like alternatives in an effort to cover for butterflies while still providing a game-changing opportunity two centuries in, is more likely to prompt a player to say "Oh, the not-Caliph of totally-not-Islam in Arabia/Egypt/Iceland has declared a not-jihad on me" rather than any intense thought on the part of the player regarding the fascinating structure and theological implications of whatever alternative is brought up, and so basically just would provide the same stuff Islam provides, but just stripped of any historicity and with a bunch of new titles the player won't recognize.

Okay, do you mean implementing a similar series of events on another religion? Why?

Anyway, we have already decided to give Mohammed ca 20 000 guys when he rises or something and then just send him away and see what happens. In Enlil´s most recent playthrough, they have taken control of half of Persia and created something called the Hillahid Sultanate and lost Arabia, which I think is quite reasonable for a regular playthrough

 

[Jokolytic]

And the Mongols were only able to build the empire they did because China was split between the Jin and the Song, and only really began pushing west because of a dickish official in Khwarezm, and yet the Mongols are a constant presence in CK2.

Red herring. Stop pushing Mahomet.

 

[Erik W]

Red herring. Stop pushing Mahomet.

What? What do a small fish have to do with the Rise of Islam?

 

[Frednutts]

Just made a relatively long post about that. Flavour has been made and if you have more suggestions feel free to come with them here.

Yeah, sorry, ninja'd.
I have made a couple of suggestions, but they were largely ignored. I'll post anything else I can think of.

 

[Joemit]

Here are Erik W's suggestions in DDS.
View attachment

 

[unmerged(515410)]

The more I read the thread the more excited I get for this mod to be released. Goodluck and Godspeed.

You guys are certainly aiming very high, and you're doing so in my favorite period of history. Hopefully, you will beautifully cover the period of history most neglected by Paradox. I look forward to bringing Byzantium down as a Clovis-type figure.

 

[geiseric]

Red herring. Stop pushing Mahomet.

......how?

And who says Mahomet, never heard that.

 

[Beamed]

Red herring. Stop pushing Mahomet.

Is this a slur you're using, or are you just really upset at the idea of a golden age brought on by Islam happening in the mod??

That gives me an idea: Why not adding an Event for the nations around Mecca and Medina when the Rise happens like:

"The Rise of Islam"

1.Interresting. Try to gain more knowledge about it - You send an Theologist to Mecca who brings back an Iman. First step to the conversion.

2.Why bother me with it? It will be gone in a few years. - You ignore Islam.

This on the other hand sounds very interesting.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Okay, do you mean implementing a similar series of events on another religion? Why?

No, I meant the opposite of that. Alternative religions meant to take on a similar role to Islam as part of a broader 'butterflies' policy should be something discounted from consideration, since odds are that they'll be transparent proxies for Islam anyways (unless a lot of time and thinking were thrown into working on hypothetical religions which won't even appear X% of the time), but with no historicity and meaningless names and titles.

Anyway, we have already decided to give Mohammed ca 20 000 guys when he rises or something and then just send him away and see what happens. In Enlil´s most recent playthrough, they have taken control of half of Persia and created something called the Hillahid Sultanate and lost Arabia, which I think is quite reasonable for a regular playthrough

That's something, at least. The vanilla Horde invasions field larger armies than that. Having some way to induce the Muslims to expand west into Egypt and Africa rather than just Mesopotamia and Persia would be pretty nifty, too. I gave a go at this sort of thing a while ago, and I swear Muslims conquered Constantinople more often than Cairo in the test games I ran.

Red herring. Stop pushing Mahomet.

♫ I'm yo' pusher-man ♫

But come on, anybody who studies the Early Middle Ages should appreciate that birth & rise of Islam was a key point in history and integral part of what made the Early Middle Ages the Early Middle Ages.

 

[Erik W]

No, I meant the opposite of that. Alternative religions meant to take on a similar role to Islam as part of a broader 'butterflies' policy should be something discounted from consideration, since odds are that they'll be transparent proxies for Islam anyways (unless a lot of time and thinking were thrown into working on hypothetical religions which won't even appear X% of the time), but with no historicity and meaningless names and titles.

That's something, at least. The vanilla Horde invasions field larger armies than that. Having some way to induce the Muslims to expand west into Egypt and Africa rather than just Mesopotamia and Persia would be pretty nifty, too. I gave a go at this sort of thing a while ago, and I swear Muslims conquered Constantinople more often than Cairo in the test games I ran.

But come on, anybody who studies the Early Middle Ages should appreciate that birth & rise of Islam was a key point in history and integral part of what made the Early Middle Ages the Early Middle Ages.

Well, we decided to make Islam a little more flexible at start. Historically it starts out as a heresy of Arabic Paganism but if another religion is dominant in Mecca then Islam becomes a heresy of that religion instead. If you want further info on this, please find it in the earlier discussion regarding Islam. But you can rest easy, I think we never mentioned anything about changing the titles/names

As a fact, the Muslim army that was sent to conquer Mesopotamia was only 18 000 strong, while, even after a long war, the Persians actually fielded an army equal in size. Twice as large if you count its Arab Allies.

 

[loup99]

Remember that Islam has been discussed extensively, already and that the suggestions I have seen now already are in the mod in one way or another. Also in my previous post on the last page, and many times more we have said that the main starting goal before releasing this mod is (correct me if I'm wrong Enlil) to make what happened in history possible but not entierly railroaded or hardcoded.

The rise of Islam is indeed a good way of threatening the big blobbs, but by leaving it relatively dynamic and flexible we do not remove it entierly but still keep it as a risk-factor. In one post that I made (that is listed in the index) I talked about religious melting-pots. I think that that if implemented correctly (would be a lot of work though) could be another factor to dissolving those huge blobbs. Quoting myself:

What I think think the focus should be know is: , as stated before, the possibilty to have things that happened historically close to the start date being able to happen, while keeping it dynamic, model the transition between feudalization and centralization and how cultures and melting pots will be handled.

 

[Erik W]

I agree with you loup. There is no point in discussing things that have been discussed and already implemented into the game. If you please read through the discussion on Islam and then decide that we have left something out, then feel free to suggest it